Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 1st, 2018, 9:34 am

I ended up glyphosating some moderately large areas this fall and have been reseeding. Grass is coming in nicely, but so is some poa triv. I've been pulling them when I see them, and I did use tenacity at seeding, but is there anything else I can do at this point?

Or just pull them when I see them, and otherwise be ready to glyphosate again next year?

Thanks.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by andy10917 » October 1st, 2018, 9:47 am

No surprise - Poa Trivialis can survive RoundUp, and often does. Pull them when you can, if it's manageable. Tenacity does not work on Poa Triv, although sometimes it whitens and stunts for a little while - and then it roars back when you're not looking. "Certainty" can control it at certain times of the year (not now), but Certainty isn't nice to FF at all. If you use RU, make sure to do a margin larger than the visible Triv - trust me that it is hiding in the margins. My war with Triv went on for 6+ years, and I still have to be vigilant when it tries to pop its head up again.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 1st, 2018, 9:53 am

Understood and thank you.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 9th, 2018, 5:11 pm

So I'm pulling the sporadic triv that's cropping up here and there in my reseeded areas (it's at 5 or 6 inches vs. my 3" new grass so it's easy to spot), but I'm also noticing more large patches coming in where I didn't previously roundup/seed (and either missed a few weeks ago or it's just spreading).

Should I round those up now, try Certainty in the spring/early summer (June 1 according to the label), understanding that it will hurt fescue (but shouldn't hurt PR/KBG) or do some other course of action? Actually, I think it hurts Rye if applied heavily, not sure if it does at the level I'd be applying it at.

Thanks as always.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by andy10917 » October 9th, 2018, 6:49 pm

Did you use sod-quality seed?


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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 9th, 2018, 7:46 pm

andy10917 wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 6:49 pm
Did you use sod-quality seed?
Not sure if sod quality per se, but I ordered/used United Seed Sure Shot R (90% KBG / 10% Rye) with a 0 crop/0 weed blue tag, and United Seed 5 Iron PR (I can't find the tag right now but it was 0/0).

I also used some 0/0 Double Eagle Lesco PR (not blue tag), and Greenview Sun & Shade () which was 0/0 (not blue tag)

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 10th, 2018, 4:20 pm

Hi Andy. Quick follow-up; is blue tag ok, or does it have to say sod quality? For example, below are 2 tags that different vendors sent me:


Image

As you can see, the one on the left is blue tag, the one on the right is sod eligible. Is the one on the left not good enough as it doesn't mention sod quality?

On a related note, do you mind sharing where you get your seed? I've contact so many vendors online and many/most tell me it's all weed/crop free, and they send various types of tags showing 0/0, but it's hard finding one that actually mentions sod.

Thanks again!

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by andy10917 » October 10th, 2018, 6:27 pm

Ummmmm...

"Certified Seed" is basically your assurance that all of the KBG seed in the bag is actually the cultivar that it says it is.

But it gets complicated - each state that produces grass seed has its own testing and labeling rules. And they can honor each other's testing. I have no idea what Maryland's labels are or what colors they come in.

I mostly buy from "Preferred Seed". I specify that I want "sod quality" which in Oregon and Washington (where most grass seed is actually grown) is a Gold Label.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by Green » October 10th, 2018, 10:37 pm

Southern ct,

I just overseeded in the recent past with 0/0 weed and other crop TTTF and KBG from two different trusted/highly regarded sellers, on areas with Summer damage. And guess what is coming up now...a few Poa Trivialis seedlings. They may be from the seed, or could be from birds. I pulled up the ones I could.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by seiyafan » October 10th, 2018, 11:38 pm

how do you tell Triv seedlings from KGB seedlings?

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by Green » October 11th, 2018, 12:18 am

seiyafan wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 11:38 pm
how do you tell Triv seedlings from KGB seedlings?
There are some giveaways, like faster growth. I will post photos tomorrow so you can see what they look like.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 11th, 2018, 8:51 am

Andy, thank you. I've been in touch with Preferred Seed so I'll work with them next year to order by seed.

Seiyafan, as Green said, triv grows much faster/quicker. I don't have a pic handy, but while my new PR is just a few inches tall (and even when it was just spourting), the poa triv was quickly several inches tall (and 4-5" if left for a few more days). Comes out of nowhere and really fast. Easy to see/pull out.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 15th, 2018, 12:47 pm

andy10917 wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 6:27 pm
Ummmmm...

"Certified Seed" is basically your assurance that all of the KBG seed in the bag is actually the cultivar that it says it is.

But it gets complicated - each state that produces grass seed has its own testing and labeling rules. And they can honor each other's testing. I have no idea what Maryland's labels are or what colors they come in.

I mostly buy from "Preferred Seed". I specify that I want "sod quality" which in Oregon and Washington (where most grass seed is actually grown) is a Gold Label.
Hi again Andy. I'm pretty certain I know the answer, but will ask the question anyway; I've followed up with several of the seed companies I found online (including Preferred Seed), and they all tell me things such as "we set those (seed and crop levels of .01) to stay in tolerance within NYS so we do not get any violations" or "I cannot offer sod quality, we reserve that stock for the sod farms in the area. I would be happy to show you any test to assure you there is no poa in the seed (even though it's not gold tag)" or "(there is no gold tag but) it must meet state specifications for certification. This blend does not contain poa triv or poa annua – it could not be state certified otherwise" or "I verify weed free above the certification (but it's not gold tag)".

I assume your answer stands that if there is no actual gold tag on the bag, I should skip the seed and not take anyone's word for it (no matter if it's a company that people have recommended on this forum as having purchased gold tag from in the past, and even if said company is assuring me there's no poa annua or triv)?

Thanks as always.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by andy10917 » October 15th, 2018, 2:27 pm

Yes, I know that many seed vendors set the number now at .01 - ask to get a copy of the original test tag(s). If you can't get any tags, then you have to make your own judgment call.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 15th, 2018, 2:38 pm

Thanks Andy. To confirm, even if it's blue tag (not gold) but I have a test showing 0 weeds (as seen below), does it get your seal of approval? Also, what's a test tag vs test report (below is a test report I got from one vendor, along with the seed tag, but not a 'test tag' I don't think).

As the one below has a 0/0 tag, and the report showing 0/0 as well. Is it therefore good to go?


Image



Image

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 15th, 2018, 2:43 pm

Would you also say that this Bewitched is ok since the report shows no weed/other? Again, it does not have a gold tag.


Image

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by Green » October 15th, 2018, 3:33 pm

Not a direct answer to your latest questions, but something to think about while you wait for Andy...

I've never knowingly bought seed that was gold tag. I've always bought 0/0 weed and other crop for critical areas, but the jury is out...I still can't be sure where the Triv came from. It may have been in some of that seed, or not. I just don't know. Only one particular seed I bought was labeled "Poa free". And I still have Triv in that area...lots of it (which could have been from other 0/0 seed used there, or something else entirely).

Btw, the "Poa free" seed was Champion GQ TTPR. KBG cannot be Poa-free, because it's a type of Poa. It would have to be free from itself.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 15th, 2018, 3:36 pm

Thanks Green. Yeah, who knows where it often comes from... I figure I must have introduced it myself though with some bad seed over the years, as none of my neighbors have any (at least not like mine). They do very little to their yards, and I can't imagine the birds only brought it to me (and not them), though I guess it's possible... But I'm pretty sure I got it from seeds, so I want to take are to eliminate that possibility in the future.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by Green » October 15th, 2018, 3:40 pm

southern-ct-4 wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 12:47 pm
I've followed up with several of the seed companies I found online (including Preferred Seed), and they all tell me things such as "we set those (seed and crop levels of .01) to stay in tolerance within NYS so we do not get any violations"
Interesting. Just learned something. I wonder what it is about NY's rules specifically, or if it's a more general practice. I always assumed 0.01 meant there was *definitely* some weed seed...you know, like as in "We absolutely guarantee there are some weed seeds in this bag!" Lol.

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Re: Poa triv re-appearing in newly seeded areas

Post by southern-ct-4 » October 16th, 2018, 3:14 pm

Andy, I just wanted to follow-up on the tests/tag I posted above. Given that info, would you consider the seed safe (i.e. annua/triv free)?

Separately, Seedsuperstore currently has Everest 50 lb (gold tag) for $388 ($7.75/lb). Normally I find their prices to be very high, but that actually doesn't seem bad at all for a gold tag bag of (I think) a good variety of KBG. One of the others places I'm in touch with (no gold tag but has reports) is $8.57/lb (blueberry), for a 50 lb bag.

On the other hand, two other places that also have reports (not gold tags) are as low as $5.50 for mixes with good varieties, or $5.22 for straight Everest (same variety as sss, but just a report, no gold tag).

Hmm... can't decide if the less expensive places are too good to be true, or they just save so much by only having reports vs. gold tag that they can charge this much less?

I'm absolutely willing to spend the extra $ to get poa/triv free seed, but of course don't want to do so if all of these companies are selling poa/triv free, but some are just less expensive for one reason or another.

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