TTTF growth habit

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
mooch91
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TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 14th, 2019, 4:52 pm

All,
Second time I've noticed this with a TTTF renovation: there is a stage in the growth cycle where some of the plants want to be tall, wide-bladed, and lighter in color. After a number of mows, they start to get more consistent. Anyone else notice this? Is this a function of TTTF varieties? I'm just hoping the seed mix I used did not include any undersirables (like K31), but I noticed the same with a previous renovation that eventually evened out.
Thanks!

Green
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Green » April 14th, 2019, 6:43 pm

TTTF is just sort of scatter-brained. There is more variation over a season to my eye than with KBG.

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 15th, 2019, 5:53 pm

This scatter-brained?

I'm starting to think something's wrong. It all looked beautiful in the fall, mowed it a few times, gave it some urea late in the season.

Now this is what I've got. It's definitely fescue throughout, just some that grows awkwardly.


Image

Green
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Green » April 15th, 2019, 9:15 pm

No, not like that. That looks like a recent Tenacity application or something. I'm guessing you haven't sprayed anything, though...? Is some of it KY-31?

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 16th, 2019, 6:35 am

No Tenacity, just gave it a Dimension treatment, I don't have much choice but to go with it though. I'm going to start cutting it and see if it settles in. Otherwise I will re-renovate again this year (frankly getting a little tired of renovating with these kinds of results!).


Green
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Green » April 16th, 2019, 9:13 am

Dimension granular or sprayed?

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 16th, 2019, 10:04 pm

Granular

Green
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Green » April 16th, 2019, 11:14 pm

How positive are you that the light patches are actually Tall Fescue?

mooch91
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Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 17th, 2019, 7:21 am

The plant has a medium-sized veined leaf with no mid-rib, so I was pretty sure it was TF.

I cut it two nights ago and it's looking a little better. Going to give it some more time to see how it grows through in the early spring. Not much I can do about it now considering pre-M is down.

maynardGkeynes
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by maynardGkeynes » April 18th, 2019, 10:56 am

mooch91 wrote:
April 14th, 2019, 4:52 pm
All,
Second time I've noticed this with a TTTF renovation: there is a stage in the growth cycle where some of the plants want to be tall, wide-bladed, and lighter in color. After a number of mows, they start to get more consistent. Anyone else notice this? Is this a function of TTTF varieties? I'm just hoping the seed mix I used did not include any undersirables (like K31), but I noticed the same with a previous renovation that eventually evened out.
Thanks!
I've planted TTTF a number of times and never gotten results like this. Very strange. I gather you don't know what was in the seed bag you used? I've never had K-31 in the TTTF bags I've bought. I've found that TTTF starts getting more wide-bladed and clumpy after a few years. For me, the first 2 or 3 years are when it looks best. Close planting also tends to keep the blades narrow. Once you start getting clumps, it tends to get wide bladed. but this doesn't look like that. Looks like a seed variety issue.

Green
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Green » April 18th, 2019, 2:28 pm

mooch91 wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 7:21 am
The plant has a medium-sized veined leaf with no mid-rib, so I was pretty sure it was TF.
TTTF has a mid-vein, but it's generally not as defined like in KBG, PR, and some Fine Fescues.

This is a real head-scratcher.

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 19th, 2019, 9:25 am

Like I’ve said in some of my other posts, I found out this seed has 2.31% other crop which I’ve learned could be ANYTHING, but is usually seeds of similar size. Could be K31, annual rye (though it’s second season so I would have thought it would not be back after winter), or something similar. I definitely noticed a huge quantity of broadleaf when I planted this as well. Big mistake on my part.

But I have noticed this with other plantings as well, just not as much. It eventually seemed to even out or disappear.

I’ll try to get a closer up picture.

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Experienced

Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 19th, 2019, 9:30 am

I’ve got a lot of triv issues in other areas of the yard, and though the color seems reminiscent of triv, the veined leaf blades give me some comfort that it’s not.

maynardGkeynes
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by maynardGkeynes » April 19th, 2019, 10:00 am

mooch91 wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 9:25 am
Like I’ve said in some of my other posts, I found out this seed has 2.31% other crop which I’ve learned could be ANYTHING, but is usually seeds of similar size. Could be K31, annual rye (though it’s second season so I would have thought it would not be back after winter), or something similar. I definitely noticed a huge quantity of broadleaf when I planted this as well. Big mistake on my part.

But I have noticed this with other plantings as well, just not as much. It eventually seemed to even out or disappear.

I’ll try to get a closer up picture.
At first I was going to ask why you would buy seed with that much "other" seed in it, but then I saw you had nearly a couple of acres. That's a lot of seed and a lot of money. Just thinking, you might be better off with all K-31 for uniformity, which matters a lot. It's not a premium turf, obviously, but all-K-31 would be better than a hodgepodge. I think the seed is pretty cheap too.

TimmyG
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by TimmyG » April 19th, 2019, 10:57 am

mooch91 wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 9:25 am
Could be...annual rye (though it’s second season so I would have thought it would not be back after winter)
I got the impression that you renovated this last fall, not two years ago. Remember, annual rye dies off in the summer (usually), not the winter.

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Experienced

Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 19th, 2019, 9:48 pm

TimmyG wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 10:57 am
mooch91 wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 9:25 am
Could be...annual rye (though it’s second season so I would have thought it would not be back after winter)
I got the impression that you renovated this last fall, not two years ago. Remember, annual rye dies off in the summer (usually), not the winter.
It was last fall and maybe that’s my culprit. I thought annual rye died off in the winter! Perhaps this is why I’ve seen similar in the past and observed it to clear up.

TimmyG
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by TimmyG » April 19th, 2019, 9:59 pm


Fullheadofturf1234
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Fullheadofturf1234 » April 19th, 2019, 10:40 pm

mooch91 wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 9:30 am
I’ve got a lot of triv issues in other areas of the yard, and though the color seems reminiscent of triv, the veined leaf blades give me some comfort that it’s not.
Triv has ribs or veins like Tall fescuse. The 2 giveaways are the boat shapped tip. (Fold in half and see id this occurs) and the triangle like membrane when you pull a leaf back.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ligula.jpg

Green
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by Green » April 19th, 2019, 11:00 pm

Fullheadofturf1234 wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 10:40 pm
Triv has ribs or veins like Tall fescuse.
Not to my eyes, Triv doesn't. Maybe under a magnifier it does, but that's not visible normally. Triv looks more like KBG (makes sense based on the "Poa" DNA in it) than a fescue to me. But apparently annual rye looks a lot like Tall Fescue...

mooch91
Posts: 130
Joined: April 25th, 2016, 8:16 pm
Location: central PA
Grass Type: KBG, PR, TTTF
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
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Re: TTTF growth habit

Post by mooch91 » April 22nd, 2019, 8:08 pm

Follow up on this question, with some pictures.

I have what I believe is annual ryegrass, though I'm not ruling out quackgrass yet.

I am confident it's not poa trivialis, though there are some similarities. I have extensive patches of that elsewhere in the lawn and I'm able to distinguish between the two.

Here are two pictures of what I believe to be the annual ryegrass. One of a few plants, the other is a close-up. Note the rolled veriation, veins on the front side of the leaf, midrib on the backside of the leaf, and the clasping auricle.

Image

Image

Here is a picture of what I believe to be larger plants of triv from elsewhere in the yard. Note the folded vernation, no veins on the front side of the leaf, and younger leaves have a boat-shaped tip (less pointy than the other plants). Pulling away a leaf shows a sharp pointed ligule, no auricles.

Image

Probably not as easy to see on the pictures, but I've compared them to NCSU images and I feel I've got a pretty good match.

I think I have some quackgrass elsewhere in the lawn and this is not it.

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