Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
Fullheadofturf1234
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Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by Fullheadofturf1234 » April 24th, 2019, 9:01 pm

So, year 2 of lawncare last year I did a spring overseed and while not turning put fantastic, I do think that I managed to establish new grass amongst the Old.

My problem right now, are grassy weeds and other non-weed grasses that have been here before.

I’m banking on the fact that Blugrass loves Nitrogen and gives it a competitive advantage to spread and take over.... been doing .25 to .5 lbs of N per thousand every week to fuel this process. Also, some spreading needs to take place to cover some bare spots.

I’ve read that lots of N plus frequent mowing can take out quackgrass which seems to be most of my problem. I’ve spotted some spots of triv but cant really tell if its triv or other grasses that just dont look as dark.

Regardless, is the theory that since bluegrass loves nitrogen more than other grasses and can tolerate frequent and low mowing I can assume that over time it will outcompete other grasses?

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turf_toes
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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by turf_toes » April 24th, 2019, 9:17 pm

Good luck with that.

It’s not going to happen. The best you’ll do is a lawn with varying shades of green and an irregular growth habit that leaves you with a shaggy, unkempt-looking lawn a day after you mow.

I’ve been doing this a long time. I wish I had a dollar for every person who came here hoping that they’ll be able to overseed with improved Kentucky Bluegrass and that it will eventually take over the lawn.

In almost every case, those same users are back in a year or two asking how to do a complete renovation.

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andy10917
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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by andy10917 » April 24th, 2019, 9:24 pm

Agree. The assumptions were piled one on top of the other, and the evidence is long-running that this approach does not work.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by Fullheadofturf1234 » April 25th, 2019, 7:33 am

andy10917 wrote:
April 24th, 2019, 9:24 pm
Agree. The assumptions were piled one on top of the other, and the evidence is long-running that this approach does not work.
Will heavily fertilized bluegrass spead into areas of lets say rye and fescue ?

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andy10917
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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by andy10917 » April 25th, 2019, 8:37 pm

No, but you'll mow a lot more.


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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by Green » April 25th, 2019, 9:02 pm

Nature always wins...think entropy.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by bpgreen » April 26th, 2019, 1:12 am

I tried taking basically the opposite approach. I overseeded with native grasses repeatedly, stopped applying fertilizer and only water 3-4 times a year (and I live in Utah, so there's basically no rain in the summer).

I've got more native grass in the lawn than I used to, but there's still a lot of kbg and tall fescue in the lawn.

My guess is that you'll be as successful replacing your existing head with kbg as I've been replacing my kbg.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by HoosierLawnGnome » April 26th, 2019, 6:45 am

Frequent mowing and lots of N will not take out quackgrass

If you're referring to my success diminishing quackgrass over the last several years theres a lot more to it.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by maynardGkeynes » April 26th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Is it fair to say that KBG will spread to fill in bare spots, but won't displace other grasses?
Will it displace dead grass?
I assume also that you can't plug KBG into an existing lawn (PRG, fescure, mystery grass) and expect it to eventually take over?

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by turf_toes » April 26th, 2019, 4:17 pm

Kentucky Bluegrass, as you already know, fills in empty spots and dead grass spots.

I’ve never heard of anyone here using KBG “plugs.” Plugging seems to be a warm-season grass thing.

Folks here have grown pots of KBG to transplant later. They’ve also transplanted edged grass that has grown into flower beds. But I wouldn’t consider those things to be “plugs.” They’re also normally used in KBG monoculture settings (not to start a conversion of an existing lawn from one grass type to another).

KBG easily spreads a food a year into my own flower beds. But I don’t think it is nearly as aggressive as some warm season grasses.

You can’t necessarily take warm season grass lessons (plugging) and apply them to cool-season grass conditions.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by andy10917 » April 26th, 2019, 4:36 pm

This is beginning to go round-and-round with minor variations that are getting the same overall response.

I'll try to make a blanket statement: I know of no technique that will convert a mixed lawn to a KBG lawn through mowing, fertilizing, praying, cajoling, begging, or pampering. I had a very nice pure-PRG lawn and tried many techniques 15-20 years ago. All failed, and ate up my time and money. There are many folks here that have tried - as TT said earlier in this thread, they all wound up either quitting or resorting to a full-kill reno.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by Fullheadofturf1234 » April 26th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Ok so I get the point... its not going to work out the way a warm season grass will.

But what about some truths. Kbg will spread and fill in so will this process not occur when other grass is present?

What if someone diliigently put kbg plugs every 6 inches ? ( i know a lot of work )

What about the Beyond variety which claims to be aggressive and crowd out poa annua? (Maybe could help with triv )

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/ ... -bluegrass

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turf_toes
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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by turf_toes » April 26th, 2019, 5:28 pm

Fullheadofturf1234 wrote:
April 26th, 2019, 4:47 pm
Ok so I get the point... its not going to work out the way a warm season grass will.

But what about some truths. Kbg will spread and fill in so will this process not occur when other grass is present?

What if someone diliigently put kbg plugs every 6 inches ? ( i know a lot of work )

What about the Beyond variety which claims to be aggressive and crowd out poa annua? (Maybe could help with triv )

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/ ... -bluegrass
No.

But knock yourself out.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by maynardGkeynes » April 26th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Fullheadofturf1234 wrote:
April 26th, 2019, 4:47 pm
Ok so I get the point... its not going to work out the way a warm season grass will.

But what about some truths. Kbg will spread and fill in so will this process not occur when other grass is present?

What if someone diliigently put kbg plugs every 6 inches ? ( i know a lot of work )

What about the Beyond variety which claims to be aggressive and crowd out poa annua? (Maybe could help with triv )

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/ ... -bluegrass
While I think it would work if you have bare ground and can keep the weeds out during the spreading, I seem to recall someone, somewhere (yes, I know, weak evidence), questioning whether KBG from rhizomes looks quite as nice. I'm personally curious and crazy enough to experiment with it, but I doubt it's a good way to go.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by turf_toes » April 26th, 2019, 6:57 pm

maynardGkeynes wrote:
April 26th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Fullheadofturf1234 wrote:
April 26th, 2019, 4:47 pm
Ok so I get the point... its not going to work out the way a warm season grass will.

But what about some truths. Kbg will spread and fill in so will this process not occur when other grass is present?

What if someone diliigently put kbg plugs every 6 inches ? ( i know a lot of work )

What about the Beyond variety which claims to be aggressive and crowd out poa annua? (Maybe could help with triv )

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/ ... -bluegrass
While I think it would work if you have bare ground and can keep the weeds out during the spreading, I seem to recall someone, somewhere (yes, I know, weak evidence), questioning whether KBG from rhizomes looks quite as nice. I'm personally curious and crazy enough to experiment with it, but I doubt it's a good way to go.
Very weak. Unless you can cite a credible university study, I suggest no one believe it either.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by Green » April 27th, 2019, 2:23 am

There is one part I think you're missing as to why KBG won't take over a lawn. The part I think you're missing, is that even though those other grasses (Fescues, Ryegrass) don't spread like KBG, they're just as competitive where they already are. Unless they die out from conditions or disease, there is no incentive or ability for KBG to enter the area where another plant is growing and kill it. It doesn't have a mechanism (e.g. stolons) to grow on top of another grass and choke it out. The rhizomes are underground and ready to spread toward a void if necessary. That's why KBG is used in most mixes; it's an insurance policy against lawn damage. As long as some of the rhizomes stay alive, new grass will eventually grow in the dead areas.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by Masbustelo » April 27th, 2019, 2:51 am

In ignorance, last fall I overseeded with a mix of seed that included annual rye. For reasons unknown to myself,I dormant seeded with bluegrass in December. This spring I have a fair number of spots in the yard where perhaps the annual rye had been. I see the bluegrass I seeded is now sprouting in these bare spots. But I can also observe that without the bare spots virtually none of the bluegrass seed would have been able to compete with my established perennial rye.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by andy10917 » April 27th, 2019, 7:55 am

Read the Purdue study again - they could find no KBG 2-3 years later. It isn't that it won't germinate, but it doesn't compete long-term.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by maynardGkeynes » April 27th, 2019, 10:02 am

andy10917 wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 7:55 am
Read the Purdue study again - they could find no KBG 2-3 years later. It isn't that it won't germinate, but it doesn't compete long-term.
If I'm reading the correct Purdue study (Zac Reicher,2007), that's pretty definitive re KBG and PRG.

I just planted a the Scott's TTTF90/HKBG10 in my rear yard. We'll see how that goes with TTTF instead of PRG. Hopefully better than my recent PRG/KBG/FF mix in front, planted last Fall, which is looking uneven at this point. I think a lot of the FF didn't survive the winter, and the PRG is growing a lot faster than the KBG at this time. Was not a wise choice to go with a "sun and shade" mix.

Unless things improve, could be doing a reno this fall. I may go all TTTF this time. Fortunately, with my vast 260sqf front lawn estate, a reno is very little work.

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Re: Elite Bluegrass’s Competitve advantage

Post by kbgfarmer » April 27th, 2019, 12:12 pm

I also hoped and prayed that all my care would convert my no mix lawn at my old house that was infested with quackgrass to a pure kbg lawn . I did research and rationalized that kbg would one day take over. Never happened. While it looked good when mowed it would get all ragged once the quack and grasses with different growth rates grew. It will never look as good as a pure bluegrass lawn. Best bet reno or roundup the quack spots.

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