Grass identification and advice on next steps

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
falcon
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Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » July 6th, 2020, 2:03 pm

I bought a new house last summer and didn't have any time to do anything to the lawn except for a fall application of urea. I have never had to maintain a lawn before, so that was my level of knowledge, and while I have learned much here, I still barely know anything.

I had a soil test done in the spring, and have been following the regimen Andy kindly put together for me in order to remediate some soil issues. That regimen, along with watering the lawn has made a major improvement over the lawn from last year. The lawn was very thin, with a ton of weeds and crabgrass, and had little green color.

This year, the lawn is greener, thicker, and looks much better, although there is lots of improvement left to be made. I'm trying to get a plan of attack in order for the fall, and I was hoping that I could get some advice.

The first issue is, I have no idea what kind of grass I have, and I have tried identifying it, but it all sort of looks the same to me. I've attached some pictures, which probably are not good enough, but hopefully they will help. I am in Reading, MA, so I assume it's some type of Northern Mix.

Another issue is the course of action needed to make this lawn look great. The previous owner had a wheelchair ramp over the front lawn that killed all the grass under it. Some of it filled in with decent grass, but some is crabgrass and there are still many bare spots.

Another challenge is that half of the lawn gets full sun, while the other half is dappled-to-full shade.

I started the weed control triangle a little late, but I did get the first part done, which helped with a lot of stuff. I never got to the Triclopyr stage, and I do have lots of clover. I assume at this point, it's probably better to wait until next year to deal with the clover. I also have some grassy weeds that tend to grow leggy and sideways rather than vertically.

So to my questions:

- What kind of grass do I have?
- Should I over seed in the fall, or just fill in the bare spots?
- What seed should I use, given that the lawn is half full-sun, half dappled to full-shade, with bare spots in both areas?
- Should I use different seed mixes for over seeding, bare spots, full-sun, shady areas?
- For the bare spots that are filling in with grassy weeds, should those weeds be chemically or manually removed before over seeding?
- Should I wait until next year to deal with the clover?
- Is this a lawn worth saving, or should I do a full renovation? - I guess, given the starting point, can I ever get this to look great?

I know it's a lot of questions, and I really appreciate the help!

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » July 6th, 2020, 7:15 pm

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schreibdave
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by schreibdave » July 7th, 2020, 8:36 am

Congratulations on the new house. Here are my thoughts on your questions:

What kind of grass do I have?
From the pictures I think I see at least one blade with a boat like tip which would indicate KBG but like you said, you likely have a mix of types plus probably a lot of grassy weeds - assuming that the lawn was not well maintained before you bought the house.

- Should I over seed in the fall, or just fill in the bare spots?
I think you will find overseeding to be of minimal benefit. Those seeds need sunlight which they wont get much of with the existing lawn providing shade. They also need to be watered several times a day - which is not what's best for your existing grass. So I would say that you should just fill in the bare and thin spots. Problem with that is that those spots wont match the surrounding grass. It will be a different color, texture and growth habit.

- What seed should I use, given that the lawn is half full-sun, half dappled to full-shade, with bare spots in both areas?
That's a tough question to answer because I think you will want the newly seeded spots to match what's around them. I would think a northern mix that has a combination of varieties that thrive in both sun or shade would be best. Based on the conditions, the seed best suited to the location will thrive over time while the others receed.

- Should I use different seed mixes for over seeding, bare spots, full-sun, shady areas?
Yea, you could do that. In terms of selecting the seed, I would pick one of the seed suppliers that people here use and ask them for recommendations.

- For the bare spots that are filling in with grassy weeds, should those weeds be chemically or manually removed before over seeding?
I think you are going to want to ID what you have and then treat them chemically. I like to pull weeds but that only works when you have a small area and only a few weeds.

- Should I wait until next year to deal with the clover?
I wouldn't wait. Unless you think killing it will lead to bare spots that you wont be able to fill until fall.

- Is this a lawn worth saving, or should I do a full renovation? - I guess, given the starting point, can I ever get this to look great?
This is really the million dollar question. It seems unlikely that an older lawn with lots of weeds will ever look "great" if that's truly your goal. But it can be green and thick. And maybe that's good enough for you.

I have been the resident lawn nut in my various neighborhoods for 20 years and just last year was my first ever renovation. It came out very well but it is not for the faint of heart and it requires doing a lot of things correctly and at the right time. If this is your first time caring for a lawn and you have between one and two acres and no irrigation system ... I think you are best served working with what you have. I would treat this lawn as your practice lawn with a plan of renovating in a couple of years once you have accumulated the experience and tools you need to do a successful renovation. For example, getting your soil in shape before the reno makes sense. Plus there is a lot of "stuff" you will want to acquire. A good mower, lots of hoses and sprinklers, probably some timers, a few pump sprayers filled with a variety of different products. With a yard as big as yours you might even want a tow behind sprayer or at a minimum a back pack sprayer. Reseeding just your bare spots will give you some experience prepping the soil, laying the seed, keeping it moist, watching it grow, etc - all things that you will do on a larger scale in a renovation.

This forum is filled with lots of good people and advice. Good luck!

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 7th, 2020, 8:43 am

falcon wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:03 pm
I bought a new house last summer ... I have never had to maintain a lawn before...

I had a soil test done in the spring, and have been following the regimen Andy kindly put together for me ...

This year, the lawn is greener, thicker, and looks much better...
Sounds like you've done great so far! Congrats!
falcon wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 2:03 pm
So to my questions:

- What kind of grass do I have?
- Should I over seed in the fall, or just fill in the bare spots?
- What seed should I use, given that the lawn is half full-sun, half dappled to full-shade, with bare spots in both areas?
- Should I use different seed mixes for over seeding, bare spots, full-sun, shady areas?
- For the bare spots that are filling in with grassy weeds, should those weeds be chemically or manually removed before over seeding?
- Should I wait until next year to deal with the clover?
- Is this a lawn worth saving, or should I do a full renovation? - I guess, given the starting point, can I ever get this to look great?
I find it really difficult to do grass ID from pictures, although it's pretty clear that you have at least fine fescue, ryegrass, and likely some Kentucky bluegrass in your mix. If the house is "new construction" then the lawn is almost surely a contractor's "northern mix" with all of those present to some degree.

Personally, I've never had success with overseeding. I think overseeding can work pretty well when using perennial ryegrass, but that any time I've tried to overseed with Kentucky bluegrass, it's basically been a failure and I would have been better off just doing what was best for the existing grass. The one exception has been if there are large bare spots, meaning a foot or more across. However, seeding into these places isn't really overseeding, but more of "patch repair."

What are your "bare spots" like -- are there significant areas that need patching (such as an area where the kids set up "home plate" when playing ball, or from under a former swing set?) or are there just lots and lots of small little "void patches" in the lawn of no bigger than a grapefruit, where there used to be a grass plant, but which died off somehow, leaving a little empty area?

It sounds like this is the first year that you'll be "equipped with knowledge" about getting the lawn to really thrive in the fall. Fall is an important time for a cool-season lawn. It is when the lawn can really respond to fertilizer, recover from any summer stress, develop strong roots, and go into winter with good energy stores to spread vigorously the next spring.

My recommendation, given that this will be your first autumn with "knowledgeable" lawn care would be to work with what you have this fall and develop your maintenance skills. Then, next May you can decide if you're happy with what the lawn looks like at that time. If so, you can maintain the lawn at that level and enjoy it. If you want something even better and are willing to invest the effort, you can plan to renovate the lawn next fall. Your renovation will be much more likely to be a success with a full year of experience, than it would be renovating this fall.

Along the lines of getting better at "knowledgeable" lawn care, I'd actually suggest you do a "mini renovation" this fall on a small "bad area" of your lawn, to learn what is needed to prepare a seedbed, water the seed for germination, get familiar with the early life cycle of new grass, and develop your skills. If it goes well, you'll have the confidence to do a much bigger area next year. If it goes poorly, you'll have some "lessons learned" for next time.

Before seeding new grasses, weeds definitely need to be chemically or manually removed (or both) before seeding.

For dealing with weeds, the best time to treat any weed is when that weed is actively growing. Clover does pretty well in the summer in New England, so it's an appropriate time to treat it. One does need to be more careful to not overapply weed killers in the summer, as cool season grass is already struggling with the heat, making it more susceptible to unintentional damage from the weed killer. That said, the herbicide of choice for clover, triclopyr in Ortho's Chickweed, Clover, and Oxalis killer for lawns (https://www.ortho.com/en-us/products/we ... oncentrate) is comparatively gentle on the grass. It is also slow-acting on the clover, so applying it early enough to be able to be patient to see results helps a lot. I just applied some on our clover patches a little over a week ago and am starting to see some injury to the clover. Usually two treatments are necessary about 10 days apart, and the clover will be pretty much gone about 14 days after the second treatment.

As to whether or not the whole lawn is worth saving, some pictures of the broader lawn would help us provide opinions. From the little images you posted, it looks like it could be a pretty good northern mix lawn. A northern mix in New England will look best in May, June, September, and October. The goal of July and August is to minimize summer decline and get through to the cooler temperatures after Labor Day!

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 7th, 2020, 8:46 am

schreibdave wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 8:36 am
Congratulations on the new house. Here are my thoughts ...
I was writing up my response while schreibdave was posting his. I'm glad to see that it seems like our advice is basically completely consistent with one another...

Nice when that happens!


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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm

Thanks to both of you for the advice. A few things I should mention:

- My total lawn is 1.7 acres, but what I am focusing on for purposes of this post is my front lawn only, which is only 3,250 square feet.
- I do have most (or all) of the equipment mentioned by Dave
- The bare spots are not that large individually, there are just a bunch of them
- I posted about 12 pictures that seem to be hung up in moderator approval, but I took some more this morning, so I will post those too

Now a few questions:

- I already have the 8% triclopyr that I was using on some woody brush I am trying to get rid of. Is the triclopyr better to apply from the Ortho dial-end sprayer, or would the hand pump sprayer (which I already have) be preferable?
- The triclopyr is not supposed to be applied in temps over 90. Does that mean exactly what it says? In other words, can I spray at 80 degress if it's going to be 95 in the afternoon?
- It seems that overseeding everything is not going to make sense, just seeding the bare spots. For seeding bare spots, do I just follow the steps in the FAQs on overseeding patches? i.e. give a good raking, sow, topdress with thin layer of peat moss, water lightly several times a day, mow after it hits 3 inches?
- I have some bare spots in other parts of the lawn that I want to fix, but compaction is an issue in a couple. What should I do on those?

Thanks so much! I'll try to get more pictures up.
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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 7th, 2020, 3:16 pm

falcon wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
- My total lawn is 1.7 acres, but what I am focusing on for purposes of this post is my front lawn only, which is only 3,250 square feet.
That's a lot more manageable to keep in "top notch" shape! Is there irrigation for the front lawn?
falcon wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
Now a few questions:
- I already have the 8% triclopyr that I was using on some woody brush I am trying to get rid of. Is the triclopyr better to apply from the Ortho dial-end sprayer, or would the hand pump sprayer (which I already have) be preferable?
The hand pump sprayer will be a lot more accurate; that would definitely be the way to go, especially for spot spraying.
falcon wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
- The triclopyr is not supposed to be applied in temps over 90. Does that mean exactly what it says? In other words, can I spray at 80 degress if it's going to be 95 in the afternoon?
Yes, it means what it says, although the more time after application before it is again 90+, the better. Shade also helps. In the summer, my personal preference here in New England is to apply about 5pm, when it has cooled to below 85F, even if it was a 90+ day. Plus, by that time of day, it won't be in the 90s again for about 16 more hours.

Note that a herbicide is only effective on a weed when the weed is actively growing. In really hot temperatures, most cool season plants (including many grasses) kind of "shut down" and stop taking in nutrients, so herbicides are ineffective. Clover, however, doesn't "shut down" as much as cool season grasses do, so it will remain green in the heat, and continues growing, albeit slower than in the spring or fall. Since clover keeps growing in the heat, triclopyr can still be effective against clover in the summer. This isn't true for all weeds.
falcon wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
... It seems that overseeding everything is not going to make sense, just seeding the bare spots. For seeding bare spots, do I just follow the steps in the FAQs on overseeding patches? i.e. give a good raking, sow, topdress with thin layer of peat moss, water lightly several times a day, mow after it hits 3 inches?
Yes. Ideal earliest "seed down" date for southern New England is around August 15th.
falcon wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
- I have some bare spots in other parts of the lawn that I want to fix, but compaction is an issue in a couple. What should I do on those?
There's always a contention between avoiding disturbing the soil (which will bring up weed seeds) and making sure the soil is loose enough for the grass to develop quickly. If the reason the ground is bare is because the grass died because the soil is heavily compacted (such as in a footpath, or having been driven over by cars, or under a swingset), then at least the top inch or so of soil should be loosened up with a garden rake or hoe, then smoothed level. It's kind of a judgment call as to whether or not the soil is too compacted for the baby grass to grow, vs. the risk of bringing up weed seeds. Particularly for small areas, I tend to favor disturbing the soil more, because the weeds can be carefully pulled out by hand after germination if the area is small enough. (Hand pulling weeds works great for small patches and is even doable for 3250sqft, but hand-pulling weeds on an acre isn't really viable.) On a larger area, minimal soil disturbance helps prevent new weeds.
falcon wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm
Image

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The additional pictures help us understand what you're up against. You have quite a smorgasbord of grasses, including many "weedy grasses" in the first and second photos above.

It seems to me that the bare spots in the first picture would benefit from scratching up the surface with a garden rake before sowing seed. After sowing the seed, the seed should be pressed into the soil. A good way to do that for small bare spots is by thoroughly stepping on it everywhere. For large areas, you'd use a lawn roller.

In the last photo, most of the grass is crabgrass. You'll want to kill that before seeding there. One could use a selective herbicide such as quinclorac to kill only the crabgrass while preserving what desirable grass is there. The issue with selective herbicides is that a longer waiting period needs to happen between applying the herbicide and having new seeds germinate. In an area that is 85+% crabgrass like you show in the photo, I'd kill the crabgrass by spraying glyphosate (which kills nearly all vegetation, including the desirable grasses). There is no need for a "waiting period" for sowing grass seed after applying glyphosate. Indeed, I have successfully applied glyphosate just an hour or two before sowing seeds with good results. I've heard that glyphosate can even be applied the day after seeding but I've never done that myself.

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » July 7th, 2020, 4:02 pm

ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 3:16 pm

That's a lot more manageable to keep in "top notch" shape! Is there irrigation for the front lawn?

Yes, I have been watering 1 inch per week faithfully. Despite most of the remaining lawn being dormant, I still need to mow this area every four days.

The hand pump sprayer will be a lot more accurate; that would definitely be the way to go, especially for spot spraying.

Great. Does the triclopyr need a surfactant?

Yes, it means what it says, although the more time after application before it is again 90+, the better. Shade also helps. In the summer, my personal preference here in New England is to apply about 5pm, when it has cooled to below 85F, even if it was a 90+ day. Plus, by that time of day, it won't be in the 90s again for about 16 more hours.

I'll do it in the evening in the next few days.


Yes. Ideal earliest "seed down" date for southern New England is around August 15th.

I already called Valley Green to figure out the best seed blend, and I'll be getting reading for early fall.

There's always a contention between avoiding disturbing the soil (which will bring up weed seeds) and making sure the soil is loose enough for the grass to develop quickly. If the reason the ground is bare is because the grass died because the soil is heavily compacted (such as in a footpath, or having been driven over by cars, or under a swingset), then at least the top inch or so of soil should be loosened up with a garden rake or hoe, then smoothed level. It's kind of a judgment call as to whether or not the soil is too compacted for the baby grass to grow, vs. the risk of bringing up weed seeds. Particularly for small areas, I tend to favor disturbing the soil more, because the weeds can be carefully pulled out by hand after germination if the area is small enough. (Hand pulling weeds works great for small patches and is even doable for 3250sqft, but hand-pulling weeds on an acre isn't really viable.) On a larger area, minimal soil disturbance helps prevent new weeds.

Some of the bare spots are from equipment compaction, so I will loosen those up more aggressively than the others.

In the last photo, most of the grass is crabgrass. You'll want to kill that before seeding there. One could use a selective herbicide such as quinclorac to kill only the crabgrass while preserving what desirable grass is there. The issue with selective herbicides is that a longer waiting period needs to happen between applying the herbicide and having new seeds germinate. In an area that is 85+% crabgrass like you show in the photo, I'd kill the crabgrass by spraying glyphosate (which kills nearly all vegetation, including the desirable grasses). There is no need for a "waiting period" for sowing grass seed after applying glyphosate. Indeed, I have successfully applied glyphosate just an hour or two before sowing seeds with good results. I've heard that glyphosate can even be applied the day after seeding but I've never done that myself.

I will do that.

Thanks so much!

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by schreibdave » July 7th, 2020, 5:38 pm

3300 sqft is much more manageable. I read your conversation with Andy about your soil and it sounds like it could use some work. That would be another reason to work with what you have rather than do a renovation now. Might as well get the soil right before going crazy trying to grow new grass.

That's especially true if you will be tearing the whole thing up in a few years to build a new home. Will the current front lawn be impacted by the construction? Are you tearing the old home down or leaving it and building behind it? I am asking because the new construction might destroy whatever new grass you get growing - another reason to just work with what you have for now.

I think you asked about sources of OM in the other thread. It looks like you live in an established neighborhood. I am picturing your neighbors putting bags of leaves out in the fall for the town to pick up. You could take those leaves and mow them in to your lawn. Neighbors will think you're nuts but if you have spent any time on this site ... they probably already do. You get used to it.

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » July 7th, 2020, 6:27 pm

schreibdave wrote:
July 7th, 2020, 5:38 pm
3300 sqft is much more manageable. I read your conversation with Andy about your soil and it sounds like it could use some work. That would be another reason to work with what you have rather than do a renovation now. Might as well get the soil right before going crazy trying to grow new grass.

That's especially true if you will be tearing the whole thing up in a few years to build a new home. Will the current front lawn be impacted by the construction? Are you tearing the old home down or leaving it and building behind it? I am asking because the new construction might destroy whatever new grass you get growing - another reason to just work with what you have for now.

I think you asked about sources of OM in the other thread. It looks like you live in an established neighborhood. I am picturing your neighbors putting bags of leaves out in the fall for the town to pick up. You could take those leaves and mow them in to your lawn. Neighbors will think you're nuts but if you have spent any time on this site ... they probably already do. You get used to it.
When I asked if a renovation would make sense, I meant in the future, not in the near term. If I was told my lawn sucked so bad that it needs a renovation, then I probably wouldn't expend too much effort on it in the interim. I would have done some things to learn on it, and not stress too much over getting it looking awesome. That was my thought process.

I am implementing everything Andy recommended, and trust me, regardless of whatever you think of the current lawn, it's about 10x better than last year. And it does look much better in person, even with all the clover and weeds. So Andy's regimen is working really well. I'm excited to get the soil test results next year.

I don't know if the current lawn will be impacted by construction. If the town allows me to keep the current house and build behind it, then it will not be impacted. The current front lawn is my learning area.

I don't get many leaves in the front lawn, but I do mulch leaves onto the back lawn already. If I mulch leaves into the front lawn, will that obviate the need to topdress with compost?

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by schreibdave » July 9th, 2020, 6:18 am

"If I mulch leaves into the front lawn, will that obviate the need to topdress with compost?"

I think the rule with OM is to do whatever you can based on budget/time/motivation. My OM percentage is a little over 5% and besides mulching I dont really add any additional OM. And I am very happy with the state of the lawn.

But if I had neighbors putting out bags of leaves I would most likely collect them and dump them on my lawn before each fall mow.

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » July 11th, 2020, 8:28 pm

Thanks, Dave.

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » August 20th, 2020, 8:40 am

I am ready to seed the bare spots and over-seed into the thin areas. I have a blend that is ~70% TTTF, 20% PRG, and 10% KBG. As of today, there is no rain in the forecast for the next two weeks (which can change quickly), so washout risk seems to be low for now. Unfortunately the temperature forecast has shot up. Today is fine, but the next five days are mid-to-high 80s for highs and mid-to-high 60s for lows. Beyond that, the forecast calls for high 70s/high 50s for high/low.

I've read that ideal soil temperature for TTTF is 50-65 degrees, which approximates air temps of 60-75. Should I wait to seed, or press forward today?

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by schreibdave » August 20th, 2020, 9:08 am

I have heard Andy say that the seeds dont care about air temps so that would indicate a green light.

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by andy10917 » August 20th, 2020, 9:41 am

... as long as you can keep things moist

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 1st, 2020, 8:22 am

So this overseed is going very well. I had germination on day 5. This morning is day 8. Now I am wondering how long to wait until adding more seed in some spots that don't yet have any germination. Again, the mixture is ~70% TTTF, 20% PRG, and 10% KBG. Thanks.

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by MorpheusPA » September 1st, 2020, 9:47 am

Bluegrasses take up to 28 days to fully germinate.

Your seed is measured by weight, so you actually have far more by count in terms of KBG than you think you do--KBG seed is tiny compared to TTTF's and PRG's monstrous, Godzilla-sized seed. :-)

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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 1st, 2020, 10:04 am

Did not know that, thank you! So it sounds like the recommendation would be to not add anything.

The TTTF is already about 1-1.5 inches high. I'm guessing it will be ready for a 3" cut next week. Should I try to avoid cutting once the KBG germinates for a week or two? I was kind of just writing off the KBG thinking that most of it wouldn't make it.

falcon
Posts: 135
Joined: October 24th, 2019, 11:43 am
Location: Reading, MA
Grass Type: TTTF/KBG Blend
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Some Experience

Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 1st, 2020, 8:50 pm

And sorry...one other question...should I continue the 3x daily watering until the KBG germinates, or should I back it to 1x/day once most of the TTTF has germinated?

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andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by andy10917 » September 1st, 2020, 9:06 pm

The idea is not to suck up the ungerminated seed. A completely manual reel mower is perfect for this.

It's not about the number of watering on the slower-germinating KBG - it's about keeping the soil a little moist - however that happens.

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