Grass identification and advice on next steps

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 3rd, 2020, 1:33 pm

Got a manual reel mower last night. And just as I was typing this, the Amazon Prime moron just drove onto my developing lawn that is taped off. He got a polite earful, but I hope the new seedlings he just drove over actually survive now.

Anyway, back to my original reason for posting...I did some reading and came up with the following:

KBG has 2,200,000 seeds per pound, while TTTF has 230,000 seeds per pound.

Let's ignore the PRG and just call the non-KBG part of the mix 90% TTTF and 10% KBG. That means that there are actually 5,500,000 KBG seeds vs. only 5,175,000 TTTF seeds.

So my 90% TTTF/10% KBG blend is actually more than 50% KBG. Do I have this correct?

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MorpheusPA
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by MorpheusPA » September 3rd, 2020, 6:01 pm

Drove? And he lived?

But yes, your calculation is correct, if the split is done by weight (which it is). KBG seeds are small. TTTF (and rye, which are comparable in size) are the Godzilla seeds of the grass world. I won't bore you with the evolutionary reasons, but they do exist.

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 4th, 2020, 1:50 pm

Sorry if I am being annoying, but I have some follow up questions.

The grass that has germinated is now up to ~3" high. The reel mower I bought has a maximum cutting height of 2.5". Should I wait until it gets to 3.5" before cutting?

Once it's cut, I was going to give it a baby dose of nitrogen (1/4lb./k). But now that I know more than 50% of the seeds are KBG that haven't germinated yet, should I wait on the nitrogen?

Finally, because I never waited this long between cuts, combined with the timing of the germination, glyphosate application, and seed down, I just found out that I have wild onions or wild garlic all over the place. I assume the best course of action is to dig it out, but wait until next year?

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MorpheusPA
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by MorpheusPA » September 4th, 2020, 7:27 pm

You're most certainly not being annoying. Ask away at your convenience and as you wish.

Usually it's "follow the one-third rule," or cut off no more than one third of the grass' length at one mow. For a mower of 2.5", that would be 2.5/(3/2), or cut at no longer than 3.75". The algebra is a bit opaque, but you'll be cutting off 1.25", leaving 2.5" (1.25 x 2, or two-thirds of the blade left).

If you want to cut shorter than that, you certainly can. It will help encourage tillering and spreading, and I cut my new lawn the first instant I could and that it would bear the stress.

But dealer's choice on that one. Anywhere in the range of 2.51" to 3.75" is completely acceptable.

If your new lawn is already that tall, it sounds like the KBG is already germinating as well. At 3", the lawn sounds like it's getting along in terms of rooting, so I'd go ahead with that minimal feed (a quarter pound really isn't very much). The seed won't object to that. Just walk lightly and easily and try not to disturb the new grass. If that turns out to be too difficult, skip it for now.

Fortunately, onion tends not to spread very fast but it sure is annoying. If you can pull it now, pull it now. The stuff tends to shrug off most herbicides, so right now when the soil is wet and the bulbs aren't well-rooted might be easier than in spring. If not, spring's fine. I hate the stuff, I have it in one southern garden and I just can't get rid of it. It even laughs at RoundUp.

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 4th, 2020, 8:23 pm

Thanks, Morpheus. I guess I will give it a cut tomorrow morning then! On the onion, if I pull it, it will leave the bulb behind. So I can do that, but I think the long term solution is to dig it out in the spring. This guy has a method that look very effective and will leave pretty all the grass behind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ0yuoLZ3ak


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MorpheusPA
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by MorpheusPA » September 5th, 2020, 12:11 pm

Give it a whirl. My response is to put on a latex glove, soap it, and spray RoundUp on it, then coat the onions repeatedly over a few days. They die. Eventually.

It's still early enough to dig it out now, patch, and seed just that spot. It's small enough that the "late" (you're really not that late for a spot) seeding won't be a problem.

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 18th, 2020, 9:51 am

Because people love before and after photos, here is the lawn on 08/25:


Image

Image

Image

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 18th, 2020, 10:06 am

And here is the lawn this morning 09/18:


Image

Image

Image

What you can't see in these photos are some small areas that are thin, which I hope will fill in over time.

I do have a few (literally) broadleaf weeds that have popped up, but those can be handled with the triangle method once the grass can handle it. One thing I learned earlier in the season was that I was over-applying herbicides, because I killed my grass in some spots where I applied them, and yes, I did it when it was not too hot. This winter I will acquire quality sprayers and wands rather than using the $10 stuff from Home Depot.

I still have the wild onion to deal with - which by the way, Morpheus - I read a few ag school articles saying 2,4-D works...any thoughts on that? I did dig some up and pulled the bulbs, but quickly concluded I would spend a dozen hours doing that method. I will either try 2,4-D in the spring, or the glyphosate, soap, glove method you suggested.

I've spoon fed 1/4lb/K nitrogen on this twice now, and will probably move to 1/2lb next week. Then in October I will resume the soil remediation plan Andy created for me, which I have followed meticulously.

It's not a perfect lawn by any means, but I'm learning and I hope to continue the improvement in the coming years.

So far, I'm pretty proud of what I accomplished with no prior experience. Obviously, with a lot of help from the folks here. Thank you.

fun4me2
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by fun4me2 » September 18th, 2020, 5:13 pm

falcon
Wow, looking great :good:

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 19th, 2020, 7:58 am

@fun4me2, thank you. Still much to do, but a major improvement!

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andy10917
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by andy10917 » September 19th, 2020, 10:53 am

How many onion weeds are we talking about? I know a trick that will get herbicides to work, but you have to treat them individually.

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 19th, 2020, 1:18 pm

There's a random ten foot strip of them, and then a couple other spots with a handful each.

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andy10917
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by andy10917 » September 19th, 2020, 1:44 pm

The trouble with Onions is the waxy coating on the leaves. Wear gloves and use a a "scratchy pad" (for pots in the kitchen) and apply RU + extra surfactant. Drag the scratchy upward but try not to break too many leaves.

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 20th, 2020, 7:27 am

Thanks, Andy.

falcon
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 26th, 2020, 12:12 pm

A couple of follow-up questions:

1) Some animal - presumably skunks or racoons has dug up some spots in this beautiful new lawn. Nothing major, but enough to bother me. Is there anything I can do to prevent this? I didn't think grubs were an issue this time of year, but I am probably wrong.

2) The strip by the road where nothing except crabgrass was previously growing has really surpassed my expectations, but now I am concerned it might have been premature. I'm getting some small patches of yellowing there. I have cut this grass 3x already, but it is growing slower there than elsewhere. I don't know if this is sprout and pout still and should avoid nitrogen, or if the yellowing just means it needs more. It could also be that the poor soil structure along the road (it was a bit rocky and dry compared to the rest of the lawn) is starting to show. I did give it two applications of BLSC and Kelp Help prior to seeding, and water absorption doesn't seem to be an issue.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 26th, 2020, 7:37 pm

falcon wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 12:12 pm
1) Some animal - presumably skunks or racoons has dug up some spots in this beautiful new lawn. Nothing major, but enough to bother me. Is there anything I can do to prevent this? I didn't think grubs were an issue this time of year, but I am probably wrong.
You could replace the lawn with pavement, crushed rock, or a hardscape. That usually gets rid of problems with critters digging. (Well, except chipmunks, which burrow under pavement and hardscapes.)

Seriously though, presuming you'll keep the lawn, applying a grub preventative (GrubEx - chlorantraniliprole) each spring will help, but won't be guaranteed to prevent critters digging in the lawn.
falcon wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 12:12 pm
2) The strip by the road where nothing except crabgrass was previously growing has really surpassed my expectations, but now I am concerned it might have been premature. I'm getting some small patches of yellowing there. I have cut this grass 3x already, but it is growing slower there than elsewhere. I don't know if this is sprout and pout still and should avoid nitrogen, or if the yellowing just means it needs more. It could also be that the poor soil structure along the road (it was a bit rocky and dry compared to the rest of the lawn) is starting to show.
My experience with roadside soil is that it is usually very devoid of nitrogen. It sounds like there was previously just crabgrass there, which doesn't demand much fertilization. How much nitrogen have you applied at seed-down or since? If the grass was greener, has been tall enough to mow, and is now turning yellowish, it is probably either lack of fertilization or overwatering. My guess would be lack of fertilization in a roadside soil.

falcon
Posts: 135
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » September 26th, 2020, 10:52 pm

Thanks, KNN.I'm going to do the Grub Ex for sure...wasn't sure if there was anything else I could do right now. Sounds like no.

Seed went down 08/24.

Germination 08/29.

First cut 09/07

1/4lb k nitrogen 09/09

Second cut 09/17

1/4lb k nitrogen 09/18

It was getting about 1/8" - 1/4" daily the last week. Moved to 1/2" 2x weekly today. 1 week from now moving to 1' 1x weekly.

Given the irrigation set-up, I doubt that edge is getting over-watered. Sounds like it needs more N?

falcon
Posts: 135
Joined: October 24th, 2019, 11:43 am
Location: Reading, MA
Grass Type: TTTF/KBG Blend
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Level: Some Experience

Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » October 6th, 2020, 1:05 pm

I applied another 1/2lb N on 09/29 and moved to 1x/week watering at 1" on 09/27. Yellowing is actually getting worse, but we have a new twist. Most of the digging is happening near the road - although there is a good portion on the rest of the lawn too - so I am wondering if the yellowing is grub related?

I applied trichlorfon at bag rate this AM and watered it in. We will see if this helps.

falcon
Posts: 135
Joined: October 24th, 2019, 11:43 am
Location: Reading, MA
Grass Type: TTTF/KBG Blend
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by falcon » October 16th, 2020, 1:37 pm

I think for me this year is done aside from the winter urea app and maybe one more cut. Hopefully mother nature will allow me to get that last urea app down on the non-irrigated parts of my lawn.

Anyway, thinking of next year already...

In the aforementioned non-irrigated parts of my lawn, I had a large die off this year caused by drought. Then last week, raccoons or skunks tore that part of the lawn to shreds. I have a game camera on this and the lawn looked like a bulldozer went over it overnight.

This happened in part of my lawn that I use, but was lowest priority in terms of renovation given that nobody can see it except me.

I know spring renovations are frowned up, but rather than have a patch of dirt all summer, any issues with seeding with TTTF in the spring? I have other areas of my lawn to renovate next fall that are much higher priority than this section.

Obviously, I will treat for grubs because there was a good amount of them.

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Grass identification and advice on next steps

Post by ken-n-nancy » October 16th, 2020, 4:04 pm

falcon wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 1:37 pm
In the aforementioned non-irrigated parts of my lawn, I had a large die off this year caused by drought. Then last week, raccoons or skunks tore that part of the lawn to shreds. I have a game camera on this and the lawn looked like a bulldozer went over it overnight.
Did the game camera catch a pic of one of the critters in action to help with ID? That would be cool to post!
falcon wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 1:37 pm
I know spring renovations are frowned up, but rather than have a patch of dirt all summer, any issues with seeding with TTTF in the spring? I have other areas of my lawn to renovate next fall that are much higher priority than this section.
Generally, the further north you get, the more likely a spring renovation will succeed. If you get far enough north (say Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) where summer is sufficiently benign and winter is sufficiently frigid, it switches over to being the best time to do the renovation.

In our area of New England (I'm about 40 miles north of you), I'd say it's reasonable to do a spring renovation with a fast-establishing grass such as PRG or TTTF, but you're going to need to irrigate the lawn regularly to supplement natural rainfall to a total of 1.5" of water per week through the summer. In a typical summer, that might not be so difficult. With the drought-pushing summer we just got through, that would involve a couple months of having almost all the water being supplied by irrigation. If your town allows watering through the summer and your water bill or well can handle it, then it can be done. Weeds are also more of a challenge than with a fall renovation, but if the area is small enough that you can manage hand-pulling most of the weeds until the grass develops enough for a broadleaf weed killer like 2,4-D then it is doable.

A spring renovation is also more likely to get through the summer if in a shady area. In an area with full direct sun from dawn to dusk, it is tougher, even at our latitude.

In sum, many have done it with good results, and some with excellent results, but it takes more effort and care than a renovation with seed-down around August 15th. In general, one is better waiting until fall to reduce required effort, and insufficient effort will end up in a spring renovation being a bit of a failure. However, we realize that often, circumstances (like a new house) require the choice between a spring renovation or a bare lot until the autumn.
Last edited by ken-n-nancy on October 16th, 2020, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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