I don't deserve a lawn

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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s1mpl3k1d
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I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 25th, 2020, 4:48 pm

I was so great in the first 4 years when I put my sod quality KBG seeds and the lawn was very thick. It was beautiful! Now I'm struggling to keep the lawn alive. There are more dead patches aside from the other thread I posted I think last year. There's a dead 8x8 ft patch by the street. The one at the back is larger maybe 15x20 ft

I only put fertilizer around early May then I forgot. I remember about a month or 2 ago, someone told me to buy mushroom compost. He told me that I won't see the effect this year but I will see it next year. I'm losing and I need help. I also think is because I am not watering enough. I am not sure if direct watering the dead hay looking section will grow since I've started watering it for straight 3 days now. Any more tips!

I forgot that kbg lawn is a high maintenance lawn. Not watering it will stress it.

SIGH! I really need help. Thank you!

Neil

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andy10917
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by andy10917 » July 25th, 2020, 9:46 pm

Mushroom compost is just packed with salts and is quite "hot". I'm not at all surprised to hear of summer stress with it.

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 25th, 2020, 10:38 pm

hi andy,

I watered it again by hand today. Is it ok to put mushroom compost this week? What should I be doing properly now aside from the watering I've been doing?

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andy10917
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by andy10917 » July 25th, 2020, 10:48 pm

In my opinion, mushroom compost should always be avoided.

For the rest of a comprehensive plan, I have no idea without a soil test telling what the situation is. It's kind of like asking a mechanic to fix your car without ever seeing it.

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 25th, 2020, 11:12 pm

Got it. I noticed though that soil is cracking. I am not sure why.


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MorpheusPA
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by MorpheusPA » July 26th, 2020, 10:48 am

Dry soils will always crack, even the best of them. My soil will crack when dry, and I will challenge anybody to say I have a bad soil.

Don't think of it as a crack, think of it as nature's way of aerating the first half inch or so very, very well.

And +1 on the mushroom compost. While I've heard of folks who recommend it everywhere...well, it's too desiccating as far as I'm concerned. If you rinse it through and dry it before use, that would help, but that's a lot of work for a compost. Personally, I'd get regular compost that simply doesn't have that problem. For now, don't apply in summer when the salt stress definitely isn't helping things.

Actually, don't apply in fall or spring, either. Use a good regular compost that's stable and doesn't have that problem, or simply use grains to feed the existing lawn and let them compost themselves in the soil, assisting the bacteria and insects every step of the way. Those bacteria and insects will assist the lawn by...well, turning that grain into compost by eating it and...er, getting rid of that nice fertilizer.

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 26th, 2020, 11:42 am

Thank you for the tips MorpheusPA! It's the first time I heard "salt stress". What is it?

I've been searching the whole morning looking for 50 lbs bag of soybean meal. I can't believe I can't find any store. I found many outside of Illinois. The farm store about 10 miles from my place shutdown 2 months ago due too no profit. Aside from SBM, what should I search? I didn't include corn gluten meal because of the ridiculous price.

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by jskierko » July 26th, 2020, 11:43 am

Image

Image

You could have gotten lost in some of the cracks I had in my yard last summer. I've worked a lot on conditioning the soil over the last year and haven't had anything even near that dramatic this year.

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by MorpheusPA » July 26th, 2020, 12:12 pm

Did you ever do the experiment in high school or college where you swab your mouth for cells, put them on a slide, and add salty water? The cells shrink and lose water as the osmotic pressure reverses, sucking water out of them. The cell can't hold water against the osmotic pressure of the salt water.

That's salt stress. The salt literally sucks the water out of the cells, desiccating them and potentially, if there's enough, killing the cell by drying it out. We actually preserve food and keep it from rotting that way, since bacteria really don't like being dried out either. Hence, salt pork, bacon... Mmm. Bacon.

It's also why every body of water has evolutionarily well-tuned organisms protected from the level of osmotic pressure the water there produces. As life moved onto the land, it had to adjust to lower-salt bodies of water that were merely brackish, then fresh. Some can handle either, the euryhaline species of fish (a few species of goldfish are in this group and, of course, salmon move from ocean to freshwater during spawning cycles).

But I'm digressing into a hobbyist point of mine.

If you see Andy and I warn about high sodium levels, this has something to do with it. High sodium levels cause salt stress and only the tiniest amounts are necessary in the soil (there's some debate as to whether sodium is necessary in a plant; long story short, I say yes). Too high and plants die due to sodium toxicity, which acts like a pre-emergent, kills young plants easily, and if it gets high enough, will stunt, damage, or kill adult grasses (which are so-so on salt tolerance to begin with).

Not all salts are quite so bad. Calcium chloride is less damaging and...well, there are complex chemistry reasons for that. You can certainly look up exactly what a salt is (from ionic bonds to electronegativity of the elements) if you want to start down that particular rabbit hole. But that's also the reason Andy and I avoid the chlorides in the soil under most circumstances and go with the sulfates. Due to that bonding, they do far less damage and don't cause the salt stress at anywhere near the same level.

Clear as mud? I think the fact that I haven't had a haircut since March is beginning to overheat my brain.

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by schreibdave » July 26th, 2020, 12:51 pm

Until you figure out what's killing the grass, I wouldn't put anything down. It could be drought, insect or disease. Or it could be the result of applying the mushroom compost.

Maybe post some pics and then get a soil test of a dead spot and another of a healthy spot? Have you done the screwdriver test? Have you inspected for insects? Is the dead area growing and if so what does the margin between health and dead lawn look like?

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by Green » July 26th, 2020, 4:17 pm

[quote=MorpheusPA post_id=342116 time=1595779965 user_id=112]If you see Andy and I warn about high sodium levels, this has something to do with it. High sodium levels cause salt stress and only the tiniest amounts are necessary in the soil (there's some debate as to whether sodium is necessary in a plant; long story short, I say yes). Too high and plants die due to sodium toxicity, which acts like a pre-emergent, kills young plants easily, and if it gets high enough, will stunt, damage, or kill adult grasses (which are so-so on salt tolerance to begin with).[/quote]

I've always wondered how much sodium (enough to be too much?) is applied with something like SLS.

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by MorpheusPA » July 26th, 2020, 5:56 pm

Green wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:17 pm
I've always wondered how much sodium (enough to be too much?) is applied with something like SLS.
Practically zip.

The sodium is the one atom at the nose end, weight of 23. The total molecular weight is 288. So sodium is 8% of the molecular weight.

Assuming you use about 6 oz (call it 180 grams) of SLS powder per gallon of liquid, you've just added 14 grams of sodium to that gallon of water.

Which you're going to use at 2 oz per gallon per thousand square feet, or a dilution of 2/120, or 1/60, or 14 g of sodium/60, or 0.23g of sodium per thousand square feet per usage.

The top six inches of your soil weighs approximately 50,000 pounds, or 22,680,000 grams. You just added 0.23 grams of sodium to that.

Soap is amazingly powerful stuff. That's why a fairly small bar will last a very long time even when cleaning a pretty dirty human being.

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by JHazzardB » July 27th, 2020, 10:22 am

Man I love it when people deep dive on the answers in a full science answer. I think I got goosebumps reading Morpheus' answer.

S1impl, did you ever reseed the areas dying back? Just curious. I remember pics of your yard years ago it looked really good. I think I also recall that you mowed it with a weed eater because you left it super long like 8 inches or so?

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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by MorpheusPA » July 27th, 2020, 4:53 pm

If I'd translated that to PPM, you might have needed a towel. 0.01 PPM, very close, addition to the soil, or 10 PPB. Part per billion. Nothing to worry about, in other words. The "soap" fraction is about ten times greater.

It really doesn't take much soap to have a significant impact on water's surface tension, particularly on that front wave of water that penetrates the soil.

Now if you're me, you tend to...overdo that a little bit. By which I mean a lot. Because you only do this twice a year and know how much give your soil has. But you wouldn't do that in summer when the salt stress from the fatty acid salts or SLS (which is also a salt, just a different process than my soap making), might be an issue.

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 28th, 2020, 10:22 am

schreibdave wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:51 pm
Until you figure out what's killing the grass, I wouldn't put anything down. It could be drought, insect or disease. Or it could be the result of applying the mushroom compost.
I was planning to put down mushroom compost but I haven't. As MorpheusPA suggested, don't put anything right now. Don't even put mushroom compost. Andy also mentioned "mushroom compost should always be avoided."
schreibdave wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:51 pm
Maybe post some pics and then get a soil test of a dead spot and another of a healthy spot? Have you done the screwdriver test? Have you inspected for insects? Is the dead area growing and if so what does the margin between health and dead lawn look like?
It rained quite a lot yesterday. I guess if I do the screwdriver test later, it will pierce the dirt smoothly. I must not assume. I'll try it later. Here are the pics.

Image

Image

Image

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 28th, 2020, 10:40 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:12 pm
Did you ever do the experiment in high school or college where you swab your mouth for cells, put them on a slide, and add salty water? The cells shrink and lose water as the osmotic pressure reverses, sucking water out of them. The cell can't hold water against the osmotic pressure of the salt water.

That's salt stress. The salt literally sucks the water out of the cells, desiccating them and potentially, if there's enough, killing the cell by drying it out. We actually preserve food and keep it from rotting that way, since bacteria really don't like being dried out either. Hence, salt pork, bacon... Mmm. Bacon.
No, I'm not familiar with that experiment. I don't remember doing it either in high school or college. Ah, now I know. You made me hungry, gonna cook bacon later! HAHAHA 🤣
It's also why every body of water has evolutionarily well-tuned organisms protected from the level of osmotic pressure the water there produces. As life moved onto the land, it had to adjust to lower-salt bodies of water that were merely brackish, then fresh. Some can handle either, the euryhaline species of fish (a few species of goldfish are in this group and, of course, salmon move from ocean to freshwater during spawning cycles).

But I'm digressing into a hobbyist point of mine.

If you see Andy and I warn about high sodium levels, this has something to do with it. High sodium levels cause salt stress and only the tiniest amounts are necessary in the soil (there's some debate as to whether sodium is necessary in a plant; long story short, I say yes). Too high and plants die due to sodium toxicity, which acts like a pre-emergent, kills young plants easily, and if it gets high enough, will stunt, damage, or kill adult grasses (which are so-so on salt tolerance to begin with).

Not all salts are quite so bad. Calcium chloride is less damaging and...well, there are complex chemistry reasons for that. You can certainly look up exactly what a salt is (from ionic bonds to electronegativity of the elements) if you want to start down that particular rabbit hole. But that's also the reason Andy and I avoid the chlorides in the soil under most circumstances and go with the sulfates. Due to that bonding, they do far less damage and don't cause the salt stress at anywhere near the same level.
WOW! Thank you so much for sharing information about salt and what it can do. I learned a lot from that! Maybe I'll need to do a soil test to find out what is in the dirt?

The stuff I put on my lawn this year are only the follow:

- Applied Prodiamine on everywhere
- Tenacity everywhere too
- Milorganite around early May

I have not done anything much.
Clear as mud? I think the fact that I haven't had a haircut since March is beginning to overheat my brain.
Yes! 😊Thank you!

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 28th, 2020, 10:45 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:56 pm
The sodium is the one atom at the nose end, weight of 23. The total molecular weight is 288. So sodium is 8% of the molecular weight.

Assuming you use about 6 oz (call it 180 grams) of SLS powder per gallon of liquid, you've just added 14 grams of sodium to that gallon of water.

Which you're going to use at 2 oz per gallon per thousand square feet, or a dilution of 2/120, or 1/60, or 14 g of sodium/60, or 0.23g of sodium per thousand square feet per usage.

The top six inches of your soil weighs approximately 50,000 pounds, or 22,680,000 grams. You just added 0.23 grams of sodium to that.

Soap is amazingly powerful stuff. That's why a fairly small bar will last a very long time even when cleaning a pretty dirty human being.
It's my first time seeing the text "SLS powder". What is it for or what does it do?

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 28th, 2020, 10:52 am

JHazzardB wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 10:22 am
Man I love it when people deep dive on the answers in a full science answer. I think I got goosebumps reading Morpheus' answer.

S1impl, did you ever reseed the areas dying back? Just curious. I remember pics of your yard years ago it looked really good.
No, I have not done any reseeding. In fact, I was thinking about it. Since I'm upset about the current situation, the other day I was brainstorming ideas and one idea that popped up was to reseed it with fine fescue/perennial ryegrass.
I think I also recall that you mowed it with a weed eater because you left it super long like 8 inches or so?
HAHAHA! Good old days! That is quite true! That never happened anymore. The growth of my kbg is very slow for the past few years.

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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by s1mpl3k1d » July 28th, 2020, 10:56 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 4:53 pm
If I'd translated that to PPM, you might have needed a towel. 0.01 PPM, very close, addition to the soil, or 10 PPB. Part per billion. Nothing to worry about, in other words. The "soap" fraction is about ten times greater.

It really doesn't take much soap to have a significant impact on water's surface tension, particularly on that front wave of water that penetrates the soil.

Now if you're me, you tend to...overdo that a little bit. By which I mean a lot. Because you only do this twice a year and know how much give your soil has. But you wouldn't do that in summer when the salt stress from the fatty acid salts or SLS (which is also a salt, just a different process than my soap making), might be an issue.
I'm very interested in soap approach though I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your comments correctly. If I do, how is it done? Is there a document in our articles page that discusses about it?

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MorpheusPA
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Re: I don't deserve a lawn

Post by MorpheusPA » July 28th, 2020, 2:29 pm

SLS is a poor man's soil conditioner. It works by pulling soil particles together, "flocculating" them into nice little peds, allowing air and water to penetrate your soil. Andy and I worked the chemistry on this one years ago.

This is the cheapest version I can source. Assuming that shipping is horrendous at the time (you can get deals and I tend to order larger amounts since I use it for other things), it's about $2.50 per gallon if you don't use the yucca extract. For the average lawn, a gallon should last about a season, although some lawns might need two.

It won't work miracles on terrible soil that hasn't had a soil test and has severe problems like complete resource collapse. But to increase air penetration, work in some liquid organics by adding kelp to the mix, make the soil a bit more diggable, deepen roots (that oxygen penetration thing again)? Sure.

And it's great after long dry periods. Spray up top, that first heavy thunderstorm doesn't run off, it penetrates instead. The soil won't refuse to let the water penetrate; the soap takes care of that. And the plants certainly don't care. And if it doesn't rain? The stuff just waits for next time, it won't degrade in dry conditions or sunlight. At least, not very much.


*****

https://aroundtheyard.com/index.php?opt ... Itemid=117

There's the initial article. I'm currently using the Kelp, I've discontinued the humates as not working effectively.

*****

The Soil Conditioner is still in use, but I've changed up the mix from using the liquid to using a solid powder. It's easier to source, much, much cheaper, far more concentrated, and stores indefinitely (SLS powder does not go bad under decent storage conditions, which includes anything where it doesn't get wet enough to turn into a solid block, in which case you just crush it back into a powder or dissolve the block).

*****

Where'd I put that link...I used to get it from Bramble Berry but they went all green and stuff and stopped selling it even though when you need this stuff, it's irreplaceable chemically. Dumb decision.

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/sodium-lau ... te-powder/

There it is. I have no preference in supplier, so if you buy it off eBay, that's fine, as long as it's pure sodium lauryl sulfate powder. There's are hundreds of sources.

In the formula, instead of "80 ounces sodium laureth sulfate" substitute "5 ounces sodium lauryl sulfate powder" (SLS powder). If you want to reduce that to 4 ounces to get exactly 4 gallons of conditioner mix out of 1 pound of SLS powder, that's fine. Your mix will simply be a little weaker.

Don't increase the amount of powder, though. Too much higher and it won't dissolve well in cold water. Ask me how I know this.

You can cut out the yucca extract if you want. It certainly helps, but it's very expensive. Just add more water instead.

*****

You can mix the soil conditioner and kelp together in your hose-end sprayer, and I do. Create the mixes in two separate containers, then mix together in your hose end canister and apply them that way.

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