Sulphur vs pH

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KBGkicksazz
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Sulphur vs pH

Post by KBGkicksazz » August 6th, 2020, 9:34 am

I’ve been micro feeding my lawn with HumaGro products.

Since my soil test last year where I had a pH of 5.2 I’ve applied lime at 20lbs per thousand x2 and two applications of Sol-u-cal

Most recent calcitic lime app was this past weekend with plan to retest next spring and see where I’m at.

The micro feeds contain sulphur and I’m curious how much that acid stuff offsets the lime applications. I’m hoping to be at 6.0 or higher now that lime will have had time to work into the soil.

Anyone figure out rough maintainnce dose to counter the Fe apps etc? the humagro labels below:
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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by MorpheusPA » August 7th, 2020, 6:19 am

It's not very much, all things considered, and easily counterbalanced and overwhelmed by the calcium you've dropped. For the most part, it's safe to ignore the minor amounts of sulfur applied in spray like this.
Even ferrous sulfate spray is pretty minor, and that's incredibly acidic.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by KBGkicksazz » August 7th, 2020, 10:23 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
August 7th, 2020, 6:19 am
It's not very much, all things considered, and easily counterbalanced and overwhelmed by the calcium you've dropped. For the most part, it's safe to ignore the minor amounts of sulfur applied in spray like this.
Even ferrous sulfate spray is pretty minor, and that's incredibly acidic.
Looking at the detailed brochures these products are in the 4-4.5 pH range so I’ll need to figure out after the next soil test how it tracks year to year. I’m suspecting I’ll still need more lime applications.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by MorpheusPA » August 7th, 2020, 2:24 pm

As you dilute those down for application, though, they rise to 6.95 or so (or very close to whatever your water is; water varies by quite a lot, actually). The concentrate is acidic, but...soil is vast.
You may need more lime, but that would be because of the latter fact.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by bpgreen » August 8th, 2020, 12:32 am

Are you digging these products in? If so, the sulfur will get eaten by bacteria and combined with water to create sulfurous acid (h2so3).

If not, the sulfur will most likely off gas.


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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by andy10917 » August 8th, 2020, 1:55 pm

Here is why ST6 isn't building products like the Huma Gro products shown into the Interpretation plans we do for members:

Foliar applications of any nutrient need to be done are far-lower application rates -- far, far lower than soil-applied nutrients. This is because the plants (grass) weren't designed by nature to take in nutrients via this method, and if applied directly to the grass at the same rate would be toxic and/or harmful. Yes, foliar applications can and do work -- look at the FAS Iron applications we recommend when the soil is at alkaline pH levels. We do so because there aren't viable alternatives. Also look at the Huma Gro warnings that are on the label and tech sheets referring to the foliar application:
Do not apply this product foliarly in concentrations greater than 10%.
Much like the FAS application that we do, foliar applications don't last that long - the Ferrous Sulfate just shows us how visually - three weeks after applying and mowing, it's gone. The others do the same, but don't supply the same visual cues. Grasses generally do not translocate the nutrients to the roots/soil well - they are designed to translocate nutrients up the plant, and sugars down the plant. Now, if the grass is mowed and mulched, some will wind up in the soil, but why not just apply to the soil in the first place, where that is an option? It's far cheaper and can be applied at much higher levels.

When nutrients are applied at a higher level to the soil, the soil acts as a Bank - building up a reservoir of them faster.

BTW - look at the ingredients on the label of "Max Pak":
Boric Acid, Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Molybdate, Zinc, Manganese, Copper, and Ferrous Sulfates.
We match pretty damned well. They use Boric Acid instead of Borax that we use, but Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, and Ferrous Sulfate all match. Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Molybdate (for Molybdenum) are used in such small quantities (look at the label or tech sheet) that they are sometimes that they are considered "nanonutrients" and reliable tests for them are not available at reasonable cost.

I prefer NOT to use pre-mixes of micronutrients because you may not need all of them, and applying some of them when you are at already high levels may cause toxicity (especially Boron).

While you're looking and learning about the label and tech sheet, there's the information about the Sulfur -- in the list of ingredients, the Sulfur is coming from the Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate. All items that we use, but most are at the tablespoons per 1000 sq ft level. This is equivalent to going down to the ocean shore and throwing in a few ounces of salt into the ocean and then asking whether the ocean is now saltier. Technically, yes it is, but you'd never be able to measure the change. The same is true of doing a foliar app of Sulfates and then asking whether the pH will be more acidic in thousands of lbs of Calcium/Magnesium/Potassium in the soil. The change is so small as to be difficult to measure.

And then there's the topper on it all - read the Tech Sheet and see all the fancy wording:
Huma Gro® MAX PAK® is a liquid micronutrient formulation containing a carbon-complexed, highly stable source of many important micronutrients. MAX PAK® is leaf friendly, salt buffered, and formulated with Micro Carbon Technology® to ensure maximum uptake and translocation of nutrients.
8.5% Organic Matter (derived from leonardite)
Ooh, Fancy!!!

There are only two things derived from Leonardite that are useful - Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid. And all that fancy wording never mentions that it's using them. Folks, don't be fooled by "Micro Carbon Technology (MCT)" - it's Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid, and the application rate of one pint per acre of a 8.5% portion of a pint per acre means it ain't going down at any real appreciable level. Ounces per acre. Instead, we have added Humic Acid at 4-5 lbs/yr per 1,000 sq ft of a 70% Humic Acid product, and will be adding Fulvic Acid to the Member plans next year. All the fancy talk in the literature is marketing talk, not product specifics.

These products are really aimed at specific situations (mostly in crops) where a crop is showing a specific problem in an acute way that is caused by a deficiency of a nutrient (mostly micronutrients). An example of a nutrient deficiency is Tomato Blossom Rot, where the issue is not enough Calcium. You use these products to save a crop from disaster, and they work well in that scenario, because crops don't get mowed a couple times a week and the plant doesn't grow out of it (hence the mowing!).

The approach we're taking applies much more of the ingredients/nutrients directly to the soil/bank, uses the Humates at many multiples of the level in these products, and is far cheaper than the "I'll add the water for you" products.

I tried several of these micronutrient solutions with Humates during my four years of Humate product testing (not specifically the Huma Gro product). All of them wound up in either the "ineffective or marginally effective" category or the "too expensive for results achieved" category, when applied to lawns for the effects of Humates.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by KBGkicksazz » August 8th, 2020, 3:31 pm

andy10917 wrote:
August 8th, 2020, 1:55 pm
Here is why ST6 isn't building products like the Huma Gro products shown into the Interpretation plans we do for members:

Foliar applications of any nutrient need to be done are far-lower application rates -- far, far lower than soil-applied nutrients. This is because the plants (grass) weren't designed by nature to take in nutrients via this method, and if applied directly to the grass at the same rate would be toxic and/or harmful. Yes, foliar applications can and do work -- look at the FAS Iron applications we recommend when the soil is at alkaline pH levels. We do so because there aren't viable alternatives. Also look at the Huma Gro warnings that are on the label and tech sheets referring to the foliar application:
Do not apply this product foliarly in concentrations greater than 10%.
Much like the FAS application that we do, foliar applications don't last that long - the Ferrous Sulfate just shows us how visually - three weeks after applying and mowing, it's gone. The others do the same, but don't supply the same visual cues. Grasses generally do not translocate the nutrients to the roots/soil well - they are designed to translocate nutrients up the plant, and sugars down the plant. Now, if the grass is mowed and mulched, some will wind up in the soil, but why not just apply to the soil in the first place, where that is an option? It's far cheaper and can be applied at much higher levels.

When nutrients are applied at a higher level to the soil, the soil acts as a Bank - building up a reservoir of them faster.

BTW - look at the ingredients on the label of "Max Pak":
Boric Acid, Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Molybdate, Zinc, Manganese, Copper, and Ferrous Sulfates.
We match pretty damned well. They use Boric Acid instead of Borax that we use, but Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, and Ferrous Sulfate all match. Cobalt Chloride, Sodium Molybdate (for Molybdenum) are used in such small quantities (look at the label or tech sheet) that they are sometimes that they are considered "nanonutrients" and reliable tests for them are not available at reasonable cost.

I prefer NOT to use pre-mixes of micronutrients because you may not need all of them, and applying some of them when you are at already high levels may cause toxicity (especially Boron).

While you're looking and learning about the label and tech sheet, there's the information about the Sulfur -- in the list of ingredients, the Sulfur is coming from the Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate. All items that we use, but most are at the tablespoons per 1000 sq ft level. This is equivalent to going down to the ocean shore and throwing in a few ounces of salt into the ocean and then asking whether the ocean is now saltier. Technically, yes it is, but you'd never be able to measure the change. The same is true of doing a foliar app of Sulfates and then asking whether the pH will be more acidic in thousands of lbs of Calcium/Magnesium/Potassium in the soil. The change is so small as to be difficult to measure.

And then there's the topper on it all - read the Tech Sheet and see all the fancy wording:
Huma Gro® MAX PAK® is a liquid micronutrient formulation containing a carbon-complexed, highly stable source of many important micronutrients. MAX PAK® is leaf friendly, salt buffered, and formulated with Micro Carbon Technology® to ensure maximum uptake and translocation of nutrients.
8.5% Organic Matter (derived from leonardite)
Ooh, Fancy!!!

There are only two things derived from Leonardite that are useful - Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid. And all that fancy wording never mentions that it's using them. Folks, don't be fooled by "Micro Carbon Technology (MCT)" - it's Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid, and the application rate of one pint per acre of a 8.5% portion of a pint per acre means it ain't going down at any real appreciable level. Ounces per acre. Instead, we have added Humic Acid at 4-5 lbs/yr per 1,000 sq ft of a 70% Humic Acid product, and will be adding Fulvic Acid to the Member plans next year. All the fancy talk in the literature is marketing talk, not product specifics.

These products are really aimed at specific situations (mostly in crops) where a crop is showing a specific problem in an acute way that is caused by a deficiency of a nutrient (mostly micronutrients). An example of a nutrient deficiency is Tomato Blossom Rot, where the issue is not enough Calcium. You use these products to save a crop from disaster, and they work well in that scenario, because crops don't get mowed a couple times a week and the plant doesn't grow out of it (hence the mowing!).

The approach we're taking applies much more of the ingredients/nutrients directly to the soil/bank, uses the Humates at many multiples of the level in these products, and is far cheaper than the "I'll add the water for you" products.

I tried several of these micronutrient solutions with Humates during my four years of Humate product testing (not specifically the Huma Gro product). All of them wound up in either the "ineffective or marginally effective" category or the "too expensive for results achieved" category, when applied to lawns for the effects of Humates.
All I can say is my results have been fantastic since using these.
Much more spreading, green, and not crazy growth.

And the cost is not outrageous for a turn key mixture.

I’ve also found the Humic-12 to be a good product.

We shall see when I do my next soil test.

I’ve got no skin in the game other than convienient and something that works.

The reason for my question was how much these products impact pH as there are acidic solutions. Once the water evaporates off after applying I was curious how this would play into the overall equation of lime applications.

I don’t begrudge people who want to save cash but convienient things to apply is an important consideration. There’s 0-0-48 gradual SOP out on the market as an example.

I don’t think the MCT is some marketing hooey. Anyone who uses these products is not going to be your average homeowner. Of course leonardite is humic. Most of their products contain around 12% leonardite.

I’ve been applying in a three week rotation Curiousity, Breakout, and Foliar iron at 3 oz/1000. I’ve also been applying it to the leaves and soil of my small redbuds and hibiscus plant and they are definitely more full and health.

There are different ways to go about it. I’ve found that serial spoon feeds have helped my lawn. Supplementing the small dose feeds of macros with humic is a good thing. Somewhat puzzled by what feels like hostility vs objectivity.

Long interesting story about how I stumbled onto Huma Gro while on a Long haul flight.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by MorpheusPA » August 8th, 2020, 6:38 pm

KBGkicksazz wrote:
August 8th, 2020, 3:31 pm

All I can say is my results have been fantastic since using these.
Much more spreading, green, and not crazy growth.
Andy is...less gentle than I am...but probably didn't spend time teaching classes to some easily-triggered sorts. :-) That was the direction I was trying to lead you without attaching a nose ring and a hempen rope.

Yes, your growth rates will certainly improve; you're more-or-less injecting stuff right into the plant, if the plant wants it. If not, it washes off. It's only a small amount, but the plant only requires a small amount at any one time. Wee amounts in the cases of things like boron, cobalt, and some random elements that are undoubtedly hanging onto the Leonardite as contaminants and that we don't even know that plants need yet. Gold? Silver? Uranium? Who knows?

I use a bit of kelp to accomplish the same result and for much the same reason. Kelp also concentrates many elements in its structure and tends to grab ones in passing that just happen to float by. It's like the great garbage collector of the sea, and adds some growth hormones into the mix as well.

What we're trying to say here is that no, it won't impact your pH significantly due to the small amounts used, and really won't impact your soil due to the fact that you're using this as a foliar feeding. The overall pinch of water-soluble kelp I use across the garden every week, similarly, just isn't enough to impact the soil even over a whole season.

Plus none of the acids in use are particularly acidic (this statement is slightly over-generalized, but mostly applicable). Consider that milk is acidic. It has a pH of 6.8 on average. Which means it has a more alkaline pH than the average lawn--but it's still an acid. Just a very, very weak one. If you watered with milk, your average pH might actually go up a bit. And you'd have lots of cats and it would smell bad very quickly, but that's another story.

Nobody's saying it has no impact on your plants. It certainly can; it's supplying what they can use up into luxury consumption with every application. It's just that, for those elements, that isn't very much in terms of mass.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by KBGkicksazz » August 8th, 2020, 7:27 pm

Guys, I apply it with a dial and spray hose end sprayer.

To think none of it is direct soil applied doesn’t make sense. It’s not like it all lands on the grass blades and nothing in the soil.

My eyes aren’t lying to me. We shall see in my next soil tests next spring.

I’ve also bought the RGS humic-12 so I can give the lawn some heavy doses. Got 5 gallons delivered to my door for $108. Easy peasy.

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by MorpheusPA » August 8th, 2020, 10:14 pm

Nobody's saying your eyes are lying. We believe you. Just like I should hope you believe me when I say the kelp I spray around really does have an impact on the plants--a significant one.

And like you, I drop it in the irrigation system. I'm hurling the stuff around like mad. The water coming out of the gallon irrigation tank at least once a week is Georgian burnt umber. https://www.etriarco.com/p/Georgian-Oil ... %2BRA24235

You'll get used to me.

But that it really doesn't show in the soil test and I don't calculate it into my yearly numbers of stuff I drop, except in the sense that I keep track of the amount of kelp I put down just for fun. I don't bother to record the potassium from it because it isn't significant.

Most of the absorption is happening via the leaves (foliar absorption) due to the smaller amount of available resources.

Most humic sources are...well, frankly, less than stellar and I've been disappointed with them. There's currently an experiment going on but I really can't speak to it as I'm not involved and not paying much current attention to it--I'd like to see the actual data (if any) as opposed to anecdotal reports. But the micro-elements in there are certainly available and you may have picked one of the good ones, I couldn't say. That's more Andy's territory than mine.

I make HA the old fashioned way. I rot it down from grain products over the course of a decade or so. Pepperidge Farm Remembers. And unless you want Pepperidge Farm to tell what it knows, maybe you go buy some of our cookies...

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Re: Sulphur vs pH

Post by KBGkicksazz » August 9th, 2020, 11:45 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
August 8th, 2020, 10:14 pm
Nobody's saying your eyes are lying. We believe you. Just like I should hope you believe me when I say the kelp I spray around really does have an impact on the plants--a significant one.

And like you, I drop it in the irrigation system. I'm hurling the stuff around like mad. The water coming out of the gallon irrigation tank at least once a week is Georgian burnt umber. https://www.etriarco.com/p/Georgian-Oil ... %2BRA24235

You'll get used to me.

But that it really doesn't show in the soil test and I don't calculate it into my yearly numbers of stuff I drop, except in the sense that I keep track of the amount of kelp I put down just for fun. I don't bother to record the potassium from it because it isn't significant.

Most of the absorption is happening via the leaves (foliar absorption) due to the smaller amount of available resources.

Most humic sources are...well, frankly, less than stellar and I've been disappointed with them. There's currently an experiment going on but I really can't speak to it as I'm not involved and not paying much current attention to it--I'd like to see the actual data (if any) as opposed to anecdotal reports. But the micro-elements in there are certainly available and you may have picked one of the good ones, I couldn't say. That's more Andy's territory than mine.

I make HA the old fashioned way. I rot it down from grain products over the course of a decade or so. Pepperidge Farm Remembers. And unless you want Pepperidge Farm to tell what it knows, maybe you go buy some of our cookies...
For sure the kelp is beneficial. As is humic.

What I like about the Huma Gro is I’m spoon feeding the lawn while also applying humic so it helps build soil structure.
I soured in Milo so ive looked to other sources.

The RGS product actually is a blend of humic/fulvic/sea kelp.

There’s guys out there who apply granular, soluble powders, pr even some guys dissolve granular humic in a bucket then strain and liquid apply it, and of course the liquid products.

Between the humic-12 and HumaGro my lawn is definitely improving. We’ve had an extremely dry summer and my lawn is holding its own which even last year would probably have burnt to a crisp by this point. The one change I made was going to humic products.

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