How much fertilizer should I put down now

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bpgreen
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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by bpgreen » October 12th, 2020, 1:33 pm

If you apply to much at one time, it'll kill the grass.

I'm not sure how much is too much, but I'm pretty sure 3 lbs would kill it. I'm not sure about 2 lbs, but that might be enough to kill it (or at least damage it) as well.

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 12th, 2020, 1:39 pm

bpgreen wrote: ↑
October 12th, 2020, 1:33 pm
If you apply to much at one time, it'll kill the grass.

I'm not sure how much is too much, but I'm pretty sure 3 lbs would kill it. I'm not sure about 2 lbs, but that might be enough to kill it (or at least damage it) as well.
Cool! Thanks for the info! πŸ‘

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by ken-n-nancy » October 12th, 2020, 9:48 pm

Well, whether or not Plan A works depends upon the type of nitrogen fertilizer applied. If the nitrogen is sufficiently slow-release so that the fertilizer applied in April becomes gradually available through April and May, and the September fertilizer becomes gradually available in September and October, then Plan A would be essentially the same as a "fast release" Plan C below:

++++++
Plan C
+++++++
April - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft
May - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft
September - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft
October - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft


However, if the slow-release fertilizer you apply takes 3 months to release, and the release is linear, it would be like Plan D below:

++++++
Plan D
+++++++
April - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
May - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
June - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
September - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
October - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
November - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft


However, if the fertilizer you applied in Plan A is all fast release, then yes, the April and September fertilizer applications will probably result in nitrogen burn.

I guess I'd like to understand the reason for your question? If it is to lessen the number of fertilizer applications you need to make to the lawn, then that's a valid motivation. Indeed, that is much of the reason for the industry's desire to develop slow-release fertilizers -- so that the effect of making regular small applications can be achieved without the hassle or labor cost of making extra applications.

However, there are some downsides -- once the slow-release fertilizer has been applied, you can't change your mind and decide to apply less in the next month if something happens that would make you want to apply less next month.

When making multiple fast-release applications, you're not committed to any application until you actually spread it on the lawn...

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by MorpheusPA » October 12th, 2020, 10:31 pm

My ceiling rate on fast-release, synthetic is 1.0 pounds N per thousand square feet per month at once (things differ when spoon feeding).

With lots of slow-release...I still wouldn't go higher in May, or ever feed before May 20th with a synthetic. Nor would I ever use much slow-release in May due to the narrower window in spring for northern grasses. They just aren't particularly breakfast-oriented nor hungry in the "morning." I used urea (0 slow release).

And you do have to watch slow release amounts, they build up. If the slow amounts add up with your fast release to exceed burn levels...you just burned the lawn even if you didn't put down that much fast release. It's rare, but it happens.

Note: Very little of what I just said applies to organics, where things work very differently.

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 13th, 2020, 12:25 am

ken-n-nancy wrote: ↑
October 12th, 2020, 9:48 pm
Well, whether or not Plan A works depends upon the type of nitrogen fertilizer applied. If the nitrogen is sufficiently slow-release so that the fertilizer applied in April becomes gradually available through April and May, and the September fertilizer becomes gradually available in September and October, then Plan A would be essentially the same as a "fast release" Plan C below:

++++++
Plan C
+++++++
April - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft
May - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft
September - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft
October - 1.5lb of N per 1000 sqft


However, if the slow-release fertilizer you apply takes 3 months to release, and the release is linear, it would be like Plan D below:

++++++
Plan D
+++++++
April - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
May - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
June - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
September - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
October - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
November - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft


However, if the fertilizer you applied in Plan A is all fast release, then yes, the April and September fertilizer applications will probably result in nitrogen burn.

I guess I'd like to understand the reason for your question? If it is to lessen the number of fertilizer applications you need to make to the lawn, then that's a valid motivation. Indeed, that is much of the reason for the industry's desire to develop slow-release fertilizers -- so that the effect of making regular small applications can be achieved without the hassle or labor cost of making extra applications.
I asked because I'd like to make sure I won't damage my lawn. I've also noticed that I've not been properly putting enough nitrogen into my lawn which maybe one of the reasons why my lawn wasn't performing well.
However, there are some downsides -- once the slow-release fertilizer has been applied, you can't change your mind and decide to apply less in the next month if something happens that would make you want to apply less next month.

When making multiple fast-release applications, you're not committed to any application until you actually spread it on the lawn...
What if using urea 46-0-0 which is fast release, would plan D work?


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s1mpl3k1d
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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 13th, 2020, 12:27 am

MorpheusPA wrote: ↑
October 12th, 2020, 10:31 pm
My ceiling rate on fast-release, synthetic is 1.0 pounds N per thousand square feet per month at once (things differ when spoon feeding).

With lots of slow-release...I still wouldn't go higher in May, or ever feed before May 20th with a synthetic. Nor would I ever use much slow-release in May due to the narrower window in spring for northern grasses. They just aren't particularly breakfast-oriented nor hungry in the "morning." I used urea (0 slow release).

And you do have to watch slow release amounts, they build up. If the slow amounts add up with your fast release to exceed burn levels...you just burned the lawn even if you didn't put down that much fast release. It's rare, but it happens.

Note: Very little of what I just said applies to organics, where things work very differently.
I forgot about your application rate

Code: Select all

05/16/20 0.50 Organic
05/25/20 0.64 Synthetic

08/01/20 0.85 Organic
09/01/20 1.43 Organic + Synthetic (some slow release)
10/01/20 1.56 Organic + Synthetic (some slow release)

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by ken-n-nancy » October 13th, 2020, 8:17 am

s1mpl3k1d wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 12:25 am
ken-n-nancy wrote: ↑
October 12th, 2020, 9:48 pm
Well, whether or not Plan A works depends upon the type of nitrogen fertilizer applied.

However, if the slow-release fertilizer you apply takes 3 months to release, and the release is linear, [Plan A] would be like Plan D below:
++++++
Plan D
+++++++
April - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
May - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
June - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
September - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
October - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
November - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
...

I guess I'd like to understand the reason for your question?
I asked because I'd like to make sure I won't damage my lawn. I've also noticed that I've not been properly putting enough nitrogen into my lawn which maybe one of the reasons why my lawn wasn't performing well.

What if using urea 46-0-0 which is fast release, would plan D work?
Plan D wouldn't burn your lawn, but wouldn't be the best timing for the fertilizer, either. The general guidance for cool season lawns is that about 2/3 of the annual fertilizer application should be in the fall, no more than 1/3 in the spring, and none in the heat of summer. In my opinion, the schedule of timing in MorpheusPA's posting is excellent. As he mentioned, it would have been better if his late spring application would have been mostly organic - I think that would have made it just about perfect.

In summary, to avoid "burning" your lawn, avoid more then 1#N/ksqft of fast-release in a single application. You want 2/3 or more of your annual application to be in the fall, with most of that in the early fall. You want to avoid spring fertilization until the grass has "greened up" on its own, and you want to make your last spring application early enough that it has worn off (1 month later) before the summer heat arrives.

The likelihood of "burning" your lawn is decreased by making multiple smaller applications, rather than fewer large applications. For instance, if you're planning to apply 4#N/ksqft in fall, you're better off applying that in 8 applications of 0.5#/ksqft (spaced out from one another in time), than in 4 applications of 1#N/ksqft.

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 13th, 2020, 11:02 am

ken-n-nancy wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 8:17 am
s1mpl3k1d wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 12:25 am
ken-n-nancy wrote: ↑
October 12th, 2020, 9:48 pm
Well, whether or not Plan A works depends upon the type of nitrogen fertilizer applied.

However, if the slow-release fertilizer you apply takes 3 months to release, and the release is linear, [Plan A] would be like Plan D below:
++++++
Plan D
+++++++
April - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
May - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
June - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
September - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
October - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
November - 1.0lb of N per 1000 sqft
...

I guess I'd like to understand the reason for your question?
I asked because I'd like to make sure I won't damage my lawn. I've also noticed that I've not been properly putting enough nitrogen into my lawn which maybe one of the reasons why my lawn wasn't performing well.

What if using urea 46-0-0 which is fast release, would plan D work?
Plan D wouldn't burn your lawn, but wouldn't be the best timing for the fertilizer, either. The general guidance for cool season lawns is that about 2/3 of the annual fertilizer application should be in the fall, no more than 1/3 in the spring, and none in the heat of summer. In my opinion, the schedule of timing in MorpheusPA's posting is excellent. As he mentioned, it would have been better if his late spring application would have been mostly organic - I think that would have made it just about perfect.

In summary, to avoid "burning" your lawn, avoid more then 1#N/ksqft of fast-release in a single application. You want 2/3 or more of your annual application to be in the fall, with most of that in the early fall. You want to avoid spring fertilization until the grass has "greened up" on its own, and you want to make your last spring application early enough that it has worn off (1 month later) before the summer heat arrives.

The likelihood of "burning" your lawn is decreased by making multiple smaller applications, rather than fewer large applications. For instance, if you're planning to apply 4#N/ksqft in fall, you're better off applying that in 8 applications of 0.5#/ksqft (spaced out from one another in time), than in 4 applications of 1#N/ksqft.
WOW, I was wrong the whole time. I wasn't aware there is an ideal limit of N we should put during spring time. Thanks a lot!

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by MorpheusPA » October 13th, 2020, 11:12 am

If this hadn't been 2020, my late-spring app would have been completely organic, targeted about 1 pound N tops (if it had been 0.6 to 0.85, I wouldn't sweat it in spring), and been applied around May 15th.

It was, however, 2020. :-)

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 13th, 2020, 12:39 pm

MorpheusPA wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 11:12 am
If this hadn't been 2020, my late-spring app would have been completely organic, targeted about 1 pound N tops (if it had been 0.6 to 0.85, I wouldn't sweat it in spring), and been applied around May 15th.

It was, however, 2020. :-)
Got it! Thanks for sharing your schedule again. 😊

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by ken-n-nancy » October 13th, 2020, 1:13 pm

s1mpl3k1d wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 11:02 am
WOW, I was wrong the whole time. I wasn't aware there is an ideal limit of N we should put during spring time. Thanks a lot!
One more thing to mention, though, is that all of these recommendations, and guidelines, and schedules, and plans are not set in stone. There are ranges of good / better / best, and exceptions due to other circumstances, and exceptions to the exceptions.

Circumstances change, conditions change, disease hits, drought arrives, grubs attack, weeks of soggy weather and overcast skies happen, etc., all of which can turn previously-made plans into exactly the wrong thing to do.

If Andy were commenting on this thread, he might say something along the lines of "walk the lawn, listen to what the grass is telling you, and make your decisions of what to do."

It's all fine to have a "general plan" of what one should do next season, but it all needs to be subject to change and what the grass needs given the year that comes about. It's the difference between being a robotic schedule, and trying to become a gardener, or even a "lawn whisperer." Andy might even say that the "best place for some of these plans is on the compost heap."

It's good to know the principles behind why to do certain things, and derive a general plan from that, but, one needs to remember that a predetermined plan, like the Pirate's code, "is more of what you'd call guidelines, than actual rules."

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by andy10917 » October 13th, 2020, 2:16 pm

walk the lawn, listen to what the grass is telling you, and make your decisions of what to do

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by ken-n-nancy » October 13th, 2020, 10:28 pm

andy10917 wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 2:16 pm
walk the lawn, listen to what the grass is telling you, and make your decisions of what to do
8-)

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 13th, 2020, 11:07 pm

andy10917 wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 2:16 pm
walk the lawn, listen to what the grass is telling you, and make your decisions of what to do
😊

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 13th, 2020, 11:11 pm

ken-n-nancy wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 1:13 pm
s1mpl3k1d wrote: ↑
October 13th, 2020, 11:02 am
WOW, I was wrong the whole time. I wasn't aware there is an ideal limit of N we should put during spring time. Thanks a lot!
One more thing to mention, though, is that all of these recommendations, and guidelines, and schedules, and plans are not set in stone. There are ranges of good / better / best, and exceptions due to other circumstances, and exceptions to the exceptions.

Circumstances change, conditions change, disease hits, drought arrives, grubs attack, weeks of soggy weather and overcast skies happen, etc., all of which can turn previously-made plans into exactly the wrong thing to do.

If Andy were commenting on this thread, he might say something along the lines of "walk the lawn, listen to what the grass is telling you, and make your decisions of what to do."

It's all fine to have a "general plan" of what one should do next season, but it all needs to be subject to change and what the grass needs given the year that comes about. It's the difference between being a robotic schedule, and trying to become a gardener, or even a "lawn whisperer." Andy might even say that the "best place for some of these plans is on the compost heap."

It's good to know the principles behind why to do certain things, and derive a general plan from that, but, one needs to remember that a predetermined plan, like the Pirate's code, "is more of what you'd call guidelines, than actual rules."
Gotcha! Good thing you mentionoed grub attacks. My entire lawn had a grub attack. I read an article or maybe someone told me(maybe Morpheuspa) that grubs will have one more last supper when they wake up in spring. Can I apply curative active grub killer aside from the preventative grub killer I'll be putting down in May-June?

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by MorpheusPA » October 14th, 2020, 3:51 pm

I think you already used a curative? You pretty much got what you're going to get, so anything remaining--probably not much--won't do much in terms of damage. Feeding is very light in spring and root and top growth is very, very strong. Most grub damage is done in September.

Check in April and again in very early May to see if you have a grub issue. You probably won't. If you do, you can think about a curative at that point. Don't do it blindly as what you'll need to use at that point will do damage a second time to your entire insect population and that really isn't a great idea.

If you're seeing 10 or fewer grubs per square foot, I'd ignore them. 5 or fewer--as I would expect--and I'd definitely ignore them. Post my curative, I went from uncountable per square foot (seriously, it was hundreds) to none detectable the next spring. Post that, preventatives have controlled the problem admirably when combined with the Bag-A-Bug traps to assure that surrounding properties don't function as good nurseries either while mine remains fairly toxic.

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 14th, 2020, 8:13 pm

MorpheusPA wrote: ↑
October 14th, 2020, 3:51 pm
I think you already used a curative? You pretty much got what you're going to get, so anything remaining--probably not much--won't do much in terms of damage. Feeding is very light in spring and root and top growth is very, very strong. Most grub damage is done in September.

Check in April and again in very early May to see if you have a grub issue. You probably won't. If you do, you can think about a curative at that point. Don't do it blindly as what you'll need to use at that point will do damage a second time to your entire insect population and that really isn't a great idea.

If you're seeing 10 or fewer grubs per square foot, I'd ignore them. 5 or fewer--as I would expect--and I'd definitely ignore them. Post my curative, I went from uncountable per square foot (seriously, it was hundreds) to none detectable the next spring.
Ah got it! I will put that in my notes. Fyi, I started writing down notes. Each log contain a date. This will help me what I did on a date.
Post that, preventatives have controlled the problem admirably when combined with the Bag-A-Bug traps to assure that surrounding properties don't function as good nurseries either while mine remains fairly toxic.
I'm going to do that next year. I wasn't really expecting there will be Japanese Beetles because they went away starting 2013. Not sure why they were back this year. Maybe because air was cleaner this year. Thanks again for the tips! 😊

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by MorpheusPA » October 15th, 2020, 7:28 pm

s1mpl3k1d wrote: ↑
October 14th, 2020, 8:13 pm
Ah got it! I will put that in my notes. Fyi, I started writing down notes. Each log contain a date. This will help me what I did on a date.
I'm trying desperately to forget what I did on many of my dates. I've seen some things. I've done some things. I certainly don't recommend it.

...but yeah, I do the same thing. I gather by week, then note activities by day within the log. The last month has been quiet, but a busier week might look like:

June 28: Resprayed Tabasco mix in gardens after heavy rain 6/28. Transplanted several Melampodium in garden 6/28. Sprayed weeds in garden 6/28. Planted 4 Orange and Red Desert Rose seeds 6/28.. Deadheaded gardens 6/29. Fed gardens 6/29. Resprayed Tabasco mix in gardens 6/29. Put up Japanese beetle traps in gardens 6/29. Planted 21 mixed Desert Rose seeds (12 sprouted) 6/29. Fed gardens 7/4.

That's a great example week as it includes outside garden work and indoor (Desert Rose) work that would eventually become outside work as the desert roses move outdoors.
I'm going to do that next year. I wasn't really expecting there will be Japanese Beetles because they went away starting 2013. Not sure why they were back this year. Maybe because air was cleaner this year. Thanks again for the tips! 😊
It will vary. Many years, I get few. Some years, bumper crop. Next year, due to the lower rainfall, I'm not expecting many since neither I nor my neighbors irrigate significantly. But it's possible I could be surprised.

I never skip the preventatives and I never skip putting up Bag-A-Bug traps. I was surprised once, rather nastily, and that won't happen again. It's a cheap alternative to killing the grubs and then fixing the problem.

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 19th, 2020, 1:18 am

MorpheusPA wrote: ↑
October 15th, 2020, 7:28 pm
I never skip the preventatives and I never skip putting up Bag-A-Bug traps. I was surprised once, rather nastily, and that won't happen again. It's a cheap alternative to killing the grubs and then fixing the problem.
I'll definitely do the same next year. πŸ’ͺThanks a lot!

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Re: How much fertilizer should I put down now

Post by s1mpl3k1d » October 19th, 2020, 2:57 pm

This is weird. I posted about my drone hobby in Water Cooler sub forum last night. I still saw it this morning. However, it's been deleted. I was under the impression that Water Cooler sub forum is meant for posting stuff not related to lawns and gardening. Oh well, it's ok

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