Need some clarification....

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
fun4me2
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Need some clarification....

Post by fun4me2 » March 5th, 2021, 10:26 am

It's that time of the year again.....
I ordered prodiamine on ebay.
After reading posts over the years how great this stuff was for weeds I deceided to give this a try.
This will be the first time I ever use this. In the past I have used Halts but having too much breakthrough weeds.
I will be using it with a gallon pump sprayer to apply to 2,500 sq ft.
I just got enough for a couple years applications. (came in a plastic bag).
Of course it did not come with directions but I did find some:
"per 1000 sf mix 0.5 oz (2 Tablespoons) with 1-2 gal of H20.
So 5 tablespoons in my 1 gal sprayer for 2,500?

However, I'm now a little confused.... :confused:
is this the time to apply it or is Dimension suppose to be now and Prodiamine is for August :confused:
Or maybe I should just stick with the granular big box store stuff?
Full disclosure I am a 72 yr. old female. You know how that goes.... :tease:

Second question, what is the best blue tracker dye. Mark it Blue or Lazer?

Thank you in advance.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » March 5th, 2021, 3:32 pm

"Full disclosure I am a 72 yr. old female. You know how that goes...."

That you're completely competent and know exactly what you're doing once you get clarification on matters of complex chemical instructions that aren't clearly written? Yes, I know how it goes. My mother is 78.

"Second question, what is the best blue tracker dye. Mark it Blue or Lazer?"

This is the easier one so I'll answer it first. Both work great. I'm sure other people have preferences.

"Of course it did not come with directions but I did find some:"

Yeah, the instructions rot. Even the formal instructions rot. I had to create my own (by creating a linear regression curve on the amount added per thousand square feet per month of coverage).

You don't want to do that. You don't need to do that.

Here's a simple rule set you can follow if you want. I don't do this because I have different goals, but this is a good general set. I made this for the general lawn, to cover both seeded and not re-seeded lawns, but gave you both rules. This depends on you. A 5-gallon sprayer weighs something. Adding 5 gallons weighs 40 pounds. I'm going to give you tablespoons per gallon and let you fill it as much as you want. I usually go 3 gallons at a time because Mr. Knee doesn't like it when I gain weight, and Mr. Knee doesn't like me carting around 30 extra pounds for any length of time.

The math: Do you care? If you care, I'll post it.


1) Apply in spring. Prodiamine covers everything Dimension does, and more. Maybe every third year use Dimension in spring and Prodiamine come July when the Dimension wears out just to keep the weeds from getting too used to the stuff.

2a) If you plan on reseeding your lawn in August and are applying in April, add 0.3-0.4 Tablespoons per thousand square feet. Dilution does not matter, so if this is per gallon or per two gallons or five gallons, that's fine. The shield will drop, if applied April 15th, around July 15-August 1. Sprout on the new grass won't be perfect, but also won't completely fail.
2b) If you do not plan on reseeding your lawn and want whole-season coverage, apply 1.0 Tablespoons per thousand square feet. Dilution does not matter, so if this is per gallon or per two gallons or five gallons, that's fine. The shield will drop around November first. This approaches but does not exceed the maximum rate for fescue--but if you're worried about that, cut it back to 0.75 Tablespoons, for a coverage shield of around 4 months through August 15th and use Dimension in September.

3) Either rain or irrigation of 0.25" minimum should occur within a week or so of using the product for best results. More irrigation or rainfall is not a problem.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by fun4me2 » March 5th, 2021, 5:22 pm

Morph I appreciate your reply.
Like your "Mr. Knee issue", I have a Ms Back issue (retired nurse here) that sings to me even when I only use the 1 gallon pump sprayer. It's the bending over to see better that zings me. Hence the reason I'm thinking the blue tracker dye this year.
Not planning to reseed this year, so I will use the whole season coverage.
1 Tablespoon per thousand sq ft means 2 1/2 tablespoons in 1 gal. of water (and walk real fast when applying :rotfl: )..... to cover 2,500 sq. ft
oh and must not forget gloves when mixing the tracker dye. :P

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » March 5th, 2021, 7:10 pm

That's perfect. Ms. Back can be handled however you wish, so the tracking dye is a great way of dealing with that. You can always do this 500 square feet at a time, with a single gallon of water, and 1/2 Tbsp of Prodiamine, pausing when required. Even taking it over the course of days is not a problem, the Prodiamine is very forgiving stuff.

Yes, wear gloves. I was working with some alcohol dye this evening (Pinata Sangria), and didn't wear any. I usually don't, and don't care. But this looks like dried blood, and I look like I bloodied a steer. If you check out the Artists thread around here, you'll note that I'm often reporting being covered in paint, pigment, colorant, dye...the list is endless.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by edslawn » March 5th, 2021, 11:43 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
March 5th, 2021, 3:32 pm
Here's a simple rule set you can follow if you want. I don't do this because I have different goals, but this is a good general set. I made this for the general lawn, to cover both seeded and not re-seeded lawns, but gave you both rules. This depends on you. A 5-gallon sprayer weighs something. Adding 5 gallons weighs 40 pounds. I'm going to give you tablespoons per gallon and let you fill it as much as you want. I usually go 3 gallons at a time because Mr. Knee doesn't like it when I gain weight, and Mr. Knee doesn't like me carting around 30 extra pounds for any length of time.
This is pure gold for me... Thanks @morpheusPA! Every once in a while I'm starting to feel like I understand this stuff a little better.

Good luck @fun4me2 ... as it is fun for me too!


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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by bpgreen » March 6th, 2021, 12:51 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
March 5th, 2021, 7:10 pm
That's perfect. Ms. Back can be handled however you wish, so the tracking dye is a great way of dealing with that. You can always do this 500 square feet at a time, with a single gallon of water, and 1/2 Tbsp of Prodiamine, pausing when required. Even taking it over the course of days is not a problem, the Prodiamine is very forgiving stuff.
In case you don't have a 1/2 T measuring spoon, there are 3 t in a T, so 1/2 T is 1.5 t (I learned to cook fairly young and grew up in a large family, so I was always doubling, tripling, quadrupling recipes, so knowing the conversions made things easier).

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » March 6th, 2021, 1:16 am

Glad I could help! And yes, 3t= 1T, and the Miracle Gro spoon large side is 1.5T. I always save those.

For the curious, the equation is:

M = 5.17T+0.21

M = Months of coverage, your answer.
T = Tablespoons of Prodiamine WDG 65 used per thousand square feet.

Derived as a linear regression from the data given in the formal guide. You'll want to round the final answer to 1 decimal place at maximum, and probably just use the closest 1/2.

So for 1 Tbsp: M = 1*5.17 + 0.21 = 5.17+ 0.21 = 5.38 = 5.5

Or 5.5 months. Or 5 if you'd rather be conservative. My spreadsheet simply rounds to the nearest half, so sometimes the math can be a little wonky.

And again, dilution doesn't much matter. If it dissolves and you can spread it evenly over 1,000 square feet, that's great. Just irrigate it in or let rain carry it in within 2 weeks, absolute maximum. I usually try for days.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by Pway » March 6th, 2021, 11:47 am

Morpheus, I think I’ve always been too concerned about the dilution. For whatever reason I’ve assumed that the water to AI needed to be fairly precise. Based on your guidance I think I can spray my lawn with considerably fewer 5 gallon tank refills. I use Dimension and assume the same applies. Thanks!

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » March 6th, 2021, 5:00 pm

Dilution rates don't matter so much for most things (except insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides where it's critical), but as Isabella Rosselini said in Death Becomes Her, "Now a Warning."

If you're using concentrated solutions of Dimension or Prodiamine, irrigate them off the lawn immediately,, at least enough to get them to ground level and off the grass blades.

It's OK to be a little loosey-goosey with this stuff, but...not too much, and know what you're working with. I'll over-concentrate pre-emergents a little, but if I do more than that, I'll irrigate immediately (or do it immediately before or during expected rainfall). I'll over-concentrate soaps and detergents because I understand them, but there's a limit to how much I'll do that depending on the weather.

Kelp is very salty, so that I have more problems with the idea of concentrating. Used as a feeding, I tend to use only a few drops per quart.

You can usually check the manual for the consequences, or the implication of consequences ("Don't apply in temperatures over 85 degrees" usually is an indirect indicator of, "This is a salt and can burn," so it's smart not to over-concentrate, or to irrigate immediately behind yourself if you do). And as I said above, never with a pesticide.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by Pway » March 6th, 2021, 5:58 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
March 6th, 2021, 5:00 pm
Dilution rates don't matter so much for most things (except insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides where it's critical), but as Isabella Rosselini said in Death Becomes Her, "Now a Warning."

If you're using concentrated solutions of Dimension or Prodiamine, irrigate them off the lawn immediately,, at least enough to get them to ground level and off the grass blades.

It's OK to be a little loosey-goosey with this stuff, but...not too much, and know what you're working with. I'll over-concentrate pre-emergents a little, but if I do more than that, I'll irrigate immediately (or do it immediately before or during expected rainfall). I'll over-concentrate soaps and detergents because I understand them, but there's a limit to how much I'll do that depending on the weather.

Kelp is very salty, so that I have more problems with the idea of concentrating. Used as a feeding, I tend to use only a few drops per quart.

You can usually check the manual for the consequences, or the implication of consequences ("Don't apply in temperatures over 85 degrees" usually is an indirect indicator of, "This is a salt and can burn," so it's smart not to over-concentrate, or to irrigate immediately behind yourself if you do). And as I said above, never with a pesticide.
Good stuff! Thanks again!

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by Runnin Tony » March 8th, 2021, 1:10 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
March 6th, 2021, 1:16 am
For the curious, the equation is:

M = 5.17T+0.21

M = Months of coverage, your answer.
T = Tablespoons of Prodiamine WDG 65 used per thousand square feet.
Awesome!! Thank you for your knowledge :yahoo:

Naturally I applied Prodiamine this morning before reading your post. Applied at a rate of .67 tbsp / 1k. Sounds like the application will work until June and I will need to consider next steps for the rest of the year

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » March 8th, 2021, 2:44 pm

0.67T would be 3.67 or July First, really, or way past the spring sprout season. So you'll get crabgrass (which likes heat, but does require some water to sprout). But even that will be unreliable for a while as the Prodiamine continues to fade.

Since you have Fescue, I'd consider Dimension at that point (you could use more Prodiamine, up to another third of a tablespoon, safely according to the official specs, but I don't usually like to push the boundaries). You can get the rest of summer into fall out of that, as long as you're not reseeding.

If you're reseeding, having the shield drop in July is actually a very good thing. It gives the last of it time to wear away before seeding.

Keep in mind, my equation is not magic. It will vary by soil type, soil moisture, soil oxygen levels, organic matter level, biological activity, and a thousand other things I'm not thinking of. It's just the calculated equation given by the (rough) numbers in the official documentation. Breakdown is going to be much faster in summer than winter, and most likely much faster in Georgia than Pennsylvania due to heat and moisture.

Equations are just math. They're pretty, they're helpful, but ultimately, they're just a guide. And as always, you should follow my watchwords: "Question Everything."

Even me. Trust me, I don't mind.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by fastboat » March 11th, 2021, 11:57 am

Great stuff! Referencing the dilution comments above, can this go down with a hose end sprayer? Doing Prodiamine for the first time this year, not happy with Dimension of late. I have 15k sf so hose end is a little easier!

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by northeastlawn » March 11th, 2021, 3:08 pm

Thanks for the equation, that is a keeper.

The hint about the miracle grow spoon is something i was always forget about.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by edslawn » March 11th, 2021, 6:34 pm

fastboat wrote:
March 11th, 2021, 11:57 am
Great stuff! Referencing the dilution comments above, can this go down with a hose end sprayer? Doing Prodiamine for the first time this year, not happy with Dimension of late. I have 15k sf so hose end is a little easier!
Simple answer is No. Accuracy is important here.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » March 11th, 2021, 8:43 pm

fastboat wrote:
March 11th, 2021, 11:57 am
Great stuff! Referencing the dilution comments above, can this go down with a hose end sprayer? Doing Prodiamine for the first time this year, not happy with Dimension of late. I have 15k sf so hose end is a little easier!
I'm going to disagree with edslawn here and answer, "Yes." Because that's the way I do it.

But again. "Now a warning." You need to have a very accurate hose-end sprayer (I use a specialty sprayer) and be a very dab hand with it, and know how to use it very precisely so that you're not overlapping or underlapping your sprayer amounts.

In my case, my sprayer can dilutes into 15 gallons of water and I put in the Prodiamine to cover 2,500 square feet. From long experience, I know how fast that walk is (and I can still mess it up a little bit, but not enough that it really matters). I also know where my hand swing goes and I'm incredibly careful about where that ends.

Very minor accidental overlap isn't the end of the world,, although fescues may actually die (this is safest on bluegrasses, which are pretty bulletproof to Prodiamine and just shrug). The shield won't stay up much longer than the maximum of 9 months as the bacteria that process it will simply eat it faster, though--I say that from experience on the patio and trying to keep it up longer.

If you're not certain of your ability or confidence with any of the above, turn the answer to "No" and use a backpack or hand-held sprayer.

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by fastboat » March 11th, 2021, 10:53 pm

Ok thanks for the advice. What I was thinking was if the dilution was heavier (extra water), there was more room for error. I could be less concerned about a little overlap so long as I got the total amount correct over the entire front and rear lawns. I've definitely not put anything down with the hose end that required any real accuracy (only soil conditioner, 2-4-d, etc.). I do have a decent amount of experience with the backpack and more sensitive apps.
I'll just stick with the backpack for now.
Appreciate the conversation as always!

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by fun4me2 » April 5th, 2021, 5:39 pm

Morph
Can I mix the Prodiamine I will need in a 5 gallon bucket then put it in my spray pump as I go along?
I would then add the blue marker for each gal I apply.
When the winds ease up, I plan on doing a dry run with my pump sprayer and just water to see how much water I will need to cover 2,500 sf. I thought maybe if I need more then 1 gal, having it premixed would be easier.
Is this doable?

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by MorpheusPA » April 5th, 2021, 6:24 pm

Sure, no problem, as long as you know the water volume and how much is going in the pump at any one time to cover a given area. Mixed Prodiamine is certainly going to be good for a couple-three days no matter what's up with your water, absolute minimum.

I do this with ferrous sulfate all the time; it's easier to bucket-mix than do it in the sprayer (and in that case, all the excess rust and contaminants settle to the bottom anyway, which is an advantage).

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Re: Need some clarification....

Post by fun4me2 » April 5th, 2021, 11:57 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 6:24 pm
Sure, no problem, as long as you know the water volume and how much is going in the pump at any one time to cover a given area. Mixed Prodiamine is certainly going to be good for a couple-three days no matter what's up with your water, absolute minimum.

I do this with ferrous sulfate all the time; it's easier to bucket-mix than do it in the sprayer (and in that case, all the excess rust and contaminants settle to the bottom anyway, which is an advantage).
Thank you Morph :good:
Now hoping the winds die down and we get some rain before mid month. :beg:

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