Lime green patches

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
PALawnGuy5
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Lime green patches

Post by PALawnGuy5 » April 19th, 2021, 9:23 pm

Hello all. Fairly new home owner (2 years) trying to make it the best in the neighborhood. For the first year I had an outside company aerate and overseed with tall fescue but was concerned about a few spots in the backyard that peeled up easily (I'm thinking bentgrass, possibly Poa Triv). Last year I decided to overseed myself after reading a lot about contaminated seed from box stores and some lawn companies. My yard is mainly fescue with a little KBR/PRG mixed in. The seed I used was a mix of a few highly regarded TTTF cultivars.

This year, I have a lot of light green patches popping up in the front yard, completely separate from where I have seen issues before. It looks terrible. Is this Poa A or the dreaded Poa Triv? Or something else? I did rake my yard before overseeding last year and am now concerned that I may have stirred up dormant Poa. The pH of my yard (heavy clay) is right on the upper end at 7.2, so I do plan to throw something down to help that, but it has always been a universal dark green color until this year.


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andy10917
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Re: Lime green patches

Post by andy10917 » April 19th, 2021, 9:44 pm

It certainly looks like the dreaded one.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by edslawn » April 19th, 2021, 9:54 pm

This may help...

viewtopic.php?t=19131

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andy10917
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Re: Lime green patches

Post by andy10917 » April 19th, 2021, 10:06 pm

Why would that thread help? That's a Poa Annua thread - that's Poa Triv in the pictures.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by gordon » April 19th, 2021, 10:09 pm

I have the same problem this year in a lawn that was a renovation a few years back...my front lawn is much worse as I think the snow plow has been depositing the scrapings in my front yard..need to reinforce my preemergent barrier as I let it slide somewhat last year. Will be following along here as others respond to your thread.


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Re: Lime green patches

Post by edslawn » April 19th, 2021, 10:45 pm

andy10917 wrote:
April 19th, 2021, 10:06 pm
Why would that thread help? That's a Poa Annua thread - that's Poa Triv in the pictures.
Well, I did say "may"... Also, won't tenacity light up both annua and triv?

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by MorpheusPA » April 19th, 2021, 11:05 pm

Howdy, neighbor. I always find P. triv easier to control, personally, so I'm not sure why people dread it so much. P. annua is the one I can't get a handle on. Maybe it just leaves me alone out of professional courtesy?

But yeah, P. triv. Definitely keep a pre-emergent barrier up as much of the year as possible, rotating chemistry if you have to. Be absolutely killer on the stuff. I've found Tenacity to work very well--when using very soft water and adding extra non-ionic surfactant (spreader sticker) to it. Get the cheapest distilled from the grocery store if you have to, if your water is even slightly hard or is chemically softened. Mine is not, it's some of the softest in the nation naturally.

I--uh--enhance it a little bit, but let's leave that alone for now. It's kind of dangerous if you're not careful.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by andy10917 » April 19th, 2021, 11:20 pm

Also, won't tenacity light up both annua and triv?
That's true. I can also light it up with a flashlight, but that doesn't help get rid of it either.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by Masbustelo » April 19th, 2021, 11:41 pm

Morpheus It is very encouraging to me to see what you have to say about trivialis. I am in a big battle with it this year. I inherited a trivialis sod farm. As far as I can tell it was never challenged for more than 50 years and had free range. Interestingly, it doesn't appear to be present in either neighbors yard to my right and left. It had develloped massive mats of rhizomes an inch thick. I sprayed with glyphosphate repeatedly and raked up wheelbarrow loads of it in places. It is trying to make a massive comeback in large areas and a limited comeback in others. One downside I have is hard water. Yesterday I would have had to buy twenty gallons of distilled water (spraying Tenacity). Can dehumidifier water be substitued?

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by MorpheusPA » April 20th, 2021, 2:20 am

Masbustelo wrote:
April 19th, 2021, 11:41 pm
Can dehumidifier water be substitued?
I'd say it's worth a shot. I have an interesting tale about a person who used to drink water off the dehumidifier in a submarine because it was cleaner than what came out of the tap.

I can't say I've done the research, but a ton of reports come in with people saying that hard water results in herbicides just not working as well. Whereas mine always seem supercharged compared to theirs, with (as I said) some of the softest water in the nation.

Double up on the non-ionic surfactant as well. 2 Tbsp of Turbo or double normal of any other one you prefer. Don't use dish soap or any other soap or surfactant that's not non-ionic.

Make sure you haven't mowed in at least two days, and don't mow for at least two afterward. Even if you have to break the mowing rules, that's fine in this one instance. Three is better, but that's difficult in spring.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by PALawnGuy5 » April 20th, 2021, 6:48 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
April 19th, 2021, 11:05 pm
Howdy, neighbor. I always find P. triv easier to control, personally, so I'm not sure why people dread it so much. P. annua is the one I can't get a handle on. Maybe it just leaves me alone out of professional courtesy?

But yeah, P. triv. Definitely keep a pre-emergent barrier up as much of the year as possible, rotating chemistry if you have to. Be absolutely killer on the stuff. I've found Tenacity to work very well--when using very soft water and adding extra non-ionic surfactant (spreader sticker) to it. Get the cheapest distilled from the grocery store if you have to, if your water is even slightly hard or is chemically softened. Mine is not, it's some of the softest in the nation naturally.

I--uh--enhance it a little bit, but let's leave that alone for now. It's kind of dangerous if you're not careful.
Maybe it's because I'm new and still learning to battle either, but for Poa A, I would run the pre-emergents through fall when I typically overseed TTTF to prevent the next season's seeds from germinating and hopefully start to slow the cycle. Plus it sounds like there are post-emergents that do help on the Annua.

For Triv, there seems to be nothing but Glyphosate and i really didn't want to nuke my yard like that.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by edslawn » April 20th, 2021, 7:27 am

Interesting tip on water hardness... I have very hard well water that is chemically softened, but I also recently added a creek pump for irrigation and treatment efforts. I'll have to test the creek water ph.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by PSU4ME » April 20th, 2021, 8:29 am

Morph, I use RO/DI water in my reef tank. You think that would be a good supercharger? I’m interested in this new twist..... pennies because I’m usually only spot spraying anymore.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by MorpheusPA » April 20th, 2021, 1:15 pm

I don't think this is a magic tip, but if the RO/DI water is cheap, sure. If not, seriously, just get the $0.69 per gallon single distilled at the grocery store. Perfect pureness doesn't seem to be necessary (my water sure isn't), just that it's not absolutely clogged with ions and crud.

I don't have my water report that the city sends every couple years, but there's still some calcium. magnesium, and of course fluoride and chlorine compounds in it. I never compared it to distilled because my water seems to work very well and the comparison between people with hard and soft water was just an idle observation.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by umbo514 » April 20th, 2021, 9:14 pm

Morpheus, I feel like I read somewhere a breakdown of how you tackle poa triv. Do you mind sharing a detailed plan or regimen that has been working for you? Or maybe a link? I would greatly appreciate it as the patches of triv in my yard are really scaring me!!

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by MorpheusPA » April 21st, 2021, 12:27 am

This year, I have 2 teeny patches of triv, and 3 of annua that crawled over the line from the neighbors'. There are 300 patches next door (I'm actually underestimating), of which I sprayed about 25 closest to the line.

I spray in April when I see it, and if it's still living (it usually isn't), and again in late May just before summer starts to come on in eastern PA (June can vary and either be a spring month, a summer month, or some of both). It usually won't come back after that, but if I see it again (usually in September), it gets a shot again. And again in October before winter.

Summer? Ignore. Winter, also ignore. It's not particularly active.

Since my sprays tend to be light, I'm still not hitting the per-patch levels for the year. Seriously, Tenacity is powerful stuff. Just a whisper works when you're using enough soap and good water; I made my gallon two years ago and am just running out again. I use it on most tough weeds. I'm still using the first little bottle of Tenacity I bought the month it came out.

As I said, I do add stuff to enhance the Tenacity spray (and other organic herbicides) but...unless you're prepared to follow more stringent rules, don't do that. It increases your risk significantly and you do have to be careful.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by Masbustelo » April 21st, 2021, 4:17 am

Morpheus What is Ammonium sulfate calcium?

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by MorpheusPA » April 21st, 2021, 2:41 pm

Where did I mention that? I hope I didn't in conjunction with Tenacity and if I did, I was really mistaken!

Ammonium sulfate is a fertilizer. Calcium sulfate is gypsum (or plaster of Paris) and is relatively insoluble. Ferrous ammonium sulfate is a salt metathesis that can happen if you combine ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate, but it's not going to happen a lot; you're mostly just going to get a combination of the two in solution. Still, they do amplify each other's effects on your lawn, so that's always nice.

None of them should be combined with Tenacity, though, as they bork the solution pH (well, gypsum really won't, but it'll sit like a big lump at the bottom of the sprayer and clog it, and you don't want that either).

I'm not sure what happens if you spray ammonium sulfate on isolated elemental calcium. I suspect the ammonia gets angry.

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by Masbustelo » April 21st, 2021, 8:50 pm

Morpheus You made a comment on October 22nd, 2011, 10:26 am, about the ammonium sulfate/calcium, and i couldn't figiure out what you meant. But thanks for the clarification. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6103&hilit=Tenacity ... ur+Results

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Re: Lime green patches

Post by MorpheusPA » April 21st, 2021, 9:46 pm

Gotcha. The sentence is one of my famous English tangles.

"Ammonium sulfate calcium strips plants, and I use a great deal in my iron mixes. This may be accelerating or enhancing the effect. It has no effect on surrounding bluegrasses."

Ammonium sulfate strips the calcium from plants, a bit of, at least, in use. That can amplify the effect of some herbicides that are blocking some channels. Amusingly, I have to watch my consumption of oxalic acid (beets, sweet potatoes, spinach) as I'm on a calcium channel blocker.

So there's no "ammonium sulfate calcium" compound, it's just a hyphenation or grammar issue, depending on how you want to resolve the error. :-)

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