Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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MrChuckDanger
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Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » October 18th, 2021, 11:29 am

Hiya all,

Long time lurker first time poster. Looking to get some feedback here as I am incredibly frustrated. Live on Long Island, NY, Zone 7b. Had my lawn fully sodded 3 yrs ago with 100% KBG (no idea on cultivar, I didn't know there were different types back then).

I am definitely new to the game - this past summer was just my 4th doing lawn care. Each of the 3 seasons since the sod was put down have been nearly the same experience: early-June, I've had the lawn rocking, super dark green (looked black from a drone!), very dense, blades green all the way to the ground. Mid-late-June, I notice down low underneath, blades browning/yellowing with lesions near the soil. Then the (what I think is) fungus hits, hard, in July and ruins the lawn for the rest of the year.

This season, I didn't think I had been watering that much, but I pulled back on watering anyway and fought hard with rotations of DiseaseEx and BioAdvanced. No dice, and I am left with a very thin lawn with a ton of dead material.

Now, throughout August/September, I had noticed that the top growth was nice green grass and gave the illusion of things looking good, but when I cut it, it looked a lot worse as you could see all the yellow/brown blades mixed in. So I had the bright idea that if I lowered the HOC (down to 2.25" over a few weeks), I would cut a lot of that brown/dead stuff down, and once I let it grow taller again the good grass would be all that was left at my regular HOC (3.5"). I think this was probably a bad idea, it's only had a couple weeks since I cut it short, but the good stuff is pretty thin/sparse and the dead stuff is even more noticeable.

Been spoon feeding 0.5lbN every 2 weeks for the past few weeks to try to get some thickening going. Not really sure what to do from here, and we're pretty late in fall. Lot of questions bouncing around my mind:
  1. Will the dead material just go away and KBG spread in? Do I need to power rake/dethatch (are those the same thing?) to get rid of the dead material? I tried raking up the dead material in a couple of areas and they look even worse now.
  2. Is 100% KBG just beyond my skill level? I'm looking great in early summer and getting killed mid summer thru fall every year. I thought fall is supposed to be when you can really get things looking nice, and I have not yet had a year where that's been the case.
  3. Is it just KBG not being great for my area? The other couple KBG lawns I know of in the neighborhood (also sodded recently) look similarly bad.
  4. First frost looks like about a month away, too soon to give up on 100% KBG and overseed w/ fast germinating PRG?
Really appreciate anyone's thoughts, I'm frustrated and feeling like I just can't win with this lawn. :banghead: Thanks!

MrChuckDanger
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » October 18th, 2021, 12:16 pm

Pics attached below (post 1/2):

Back in early June, looking awesome so dark it's almost black:
Image

Now - very thin:
Image

MrChuckDanger
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » October 18th, 2021, 12:19 pm

Pics attached below (post 2/2):

Now - lots of dead material
Image
Image

Masbustelo
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by Masbustelo » October 18th, 2021, 7:41 pm

I would suggest getting a soil test done. Logan Labs is the only lab used on this site. Without a soil test you don't know what you are battling. How much nitrogen did you apply April -August? The solution to your issues probably isn't resolved through more grass seed.

MrChuckDanger
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » October 18th, 2021, 8:31 pm

Masbustelo wrote:
October 18th, 2021, 7:41 pm
I would suggest getting a soil test done. Logan Labs is the only lab used on this site. Without a soil test you don't know what you are battling. How much nitrogen did you apply April -August? The solution to your issues probably isn't resolved through more grass seed.
Hey, thanks for the reply. I did do a soil test in the spring but have only recently learned of the importance of lab choice, and this was not that lab. The test showed very low N (my inexperience probably showing again, I have since learned that soil test N may not be very helpful), and so I went a bit wild with N in April-Early June @ 4.5lbs/k total -- about half of that was slow release. I also applied Mag-I-Cal for Acidic Lawns @ 7lb/k 2x about 6 weeks apart in the spring, hoping to resolve the low pH on the soil test.
Image

I then stopped N over the summer while I was doing fungicide as I had read that apps with active disease can be harmful. So between April-August: 4.5lb/k, with all of that applied between 4/10-6/9. About a week or two after 6/9 is when everything started to go downhill.

Early September I resumed N making an app 9/6 @ 1lb/k and then 10/6 @ 0.5lb/k, was planning on next 10/20 for another 0.5lb.


Masbustelo
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by Masbustelo » October 19th, 2021, 9:27 am

I would suggest doing a 'mental reset'. There are those on this board well capable of correcting me if I'm wrong here. Next year don't apply any nitrogen until aproximately May 30th. I know this goes against marketing and practice that you might see elsewhere. By spiking the turf in early to mid spring you are setting up a perfect storm of mildews and humidity sensitive diseases which may have wiped out your yard. It is too late and to early to apply more nitrogen this year.
Apply your final app of (urea only) around Thanksgiving or later at the moment in time when there is suddenly zero top growth. Either now or very early spring get a Logan labs report, and the moderaters will interpret it for you (gratis).

Masbustelo
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by Masbustelo » October 19th, 2021, 9:32 am

I just took a quick glance at the soil test. If it is accurate and who knows? It is showing low levels of Potassium and Boron. Both important nutrients in turf growth and health. If it was me, I'd get the Logan test now, and then you can have your nutrition plan in place for when spring hits.

edslawn
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by edslawn » October 19th, 2021, 10:22 pm

I agree with Masbustelo... Get the soil test and ease back on the treatments until you have a soil plan. The recent photos really don't look that bad for this time of year and the early season N wasn't ideal. For now, focus on the Fall N application: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15109

Good luck with it!

northeastlawn
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by northeastlawn » October 20th, 2021, 7:33 am

My lawn looks very similar this year. I narrowed it down to either poa-a dying late summer, fungus, or excessive shade. When late august hits, my lawn gets really shady. I notice the grass really struggles. The disease (rust) also takes hold of it.

It’s KBG so it comes back, but long term, my solution may be adding a more shade tolerant kbg like midnight to the mix. I don’t dare take out the dead grass now because it could really kick up the poa-a.

Just a few things to consider, it can be hard to distinguish between all those things.

Adam_M
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by Adam_M » October 20th, 2021, 8:29 am

MrChuckDanger wrote:
October 18th, 2021, 8:31 pm


Hey, thanks for the reply. I did do a soil test in the spring but have only recently learned of the importance of lab choice, and this was not that lab. The test showed very low N (my inexperience probably showing again, I have since learned that soil test N may not be very helpful), and so I went a bit wild with N in April-Early June @ 4.5lbs/k total -- about half of that was slow release. I also applied Mag-I-Cal for Acidic Lawns @ 7lb/k 2x about 6 weeks apart in the spring, hoping to resolve the low pH on the soil test.
Image

I then stopped N over the summer while I was doing fungicide as I had read that apps with active disease can be harmful. So between April-August: 4.5lb/k, with all of that applied between 4/10-6/9. About a week or two after 6/9 is when everything started to go downhill.

Early September I resumed N making an app 9/6 @ 1lb/k and then 10/6 @ 0.5lb/k, was planning on next 10/20 for another 0.5lb.
That seems like a lot of N, delivered very early. I'm in the midst of soil remediation and in an effort to move the soil remediation along, I put down 1 lb/k of synthetic N down in May, June and 1 pound of Milo 2 weeks apart, and while my grass looked good in the spring, it just died in the summer heat. I've come to learn from experience and the wisdom of others that too much N in the spring is not good.

MrChuckDanger
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » October 20th, 2021, 9:26 pm

Really appreciate the replies, all!!! I will fully admit, I am definitely being a bit of a drama queen - from 10 feet away, it looks green and some people who are not on this board might even go so far as to say "good"... :no: But definitely a long ways off what it looked like in June!

Consensus appears to be that I've been way overdoing it in the spring. I will focus on what's left with the fall and get the Logan Test so I know better what to do next spring! Any concern with me getting it now with only 2 weeks since my last Fert app (some K in there too...24-0-6)? Or wait a little longer?

Any thoughts on what to do with the dead grass? Just leave it so as not to stir up anything undesirable? Will it decompose over the winter to allow for a thickening of the good grass?

Adam_M
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by Adam_M » October 21st, 2021, 10:38 am

The general wisdom here is to pause fertilization around the AVERAGE first frost date in your area, and then put a full 1 pound of N down (most use urea: 46-0-0) after ALL top growth has stopped. For me, in zone 6 in southwest PA, those dates are around October 15th and around thanksgiving.

I suggest that you read the fall nitrogen regimen threads to understand why feeding as the grass is preparing for dormancy may be less than optimal. With that said, I don't know your weather or region, so you still may be at the end of the fall N feedings before the pause and the after top-growth N application.

MrChuckDanger
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » October 21st, 2021, 4:22 pm

Adam_M wrote:
October 21st, 2021, 10:38 am
The general wisdom here is to pause fertilization around the AVERAGE first frost date in your area, and then put a full 1 pound of N down (most use urea: 46-0-0) after ALL top growth has stopped. For me, in zone 6 in southwest PA, those dates are around October 15th and around thanksgiving.

I suggest that you read the fall nitrogen regimen threads to understand why feeding as the grass is preparing for dormancy may be less than optimal. With that said, I don't know your weather or region, so you still may be at the end of the fall N feedings before the pause and the after top-growth N application.
Thanks, yes I was reading the fall regimen thread posted earlier. Using the tool linked there, my average first frost date is Nov 15, so I think I have a few weeks until "the pause", assuming I am interpreting correctly.

Adam_M
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by Adam_M » October 22nd, 2021, 9:31 am

Yep, you are fine then.

edslawn
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by edslawn » October 23rd, 2021, 9:19 am

MrChuckDanger wrote:
October 21st, 2021, 4:22 pm
Thanks, yes I was reading the fall regimen thread posted earlier. Using the tool linked there, my average first frost date is Nov 15, so I think I have a few weeks until "the pause", assuming I am interpreting correctly.
This is probably about the right timing for you. I am in South Central PA and dropped my last Urea on Nov 22 last year. This helps guide you but the key is growth has stopped. Also, keep in mind that you have a few weeks after stoppage so don't pull the trigger early.

HSB3-LI
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by HSB3-LI » October 23rd, 2021, 11:16 am

Keep in mind if you happen to be in Suffolk County, no fertilizer apps are allowed between Nov. 1st and April 1st.

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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MorpheusPA » October 23rd, 2021, 4:01 pm

From the looks, it's a pretty normal late fall lawn, actually. And yeah, get a Logan test (we're going into the winter pause on reading those, and I'm up to my friggin' ears with a new job with fall, so it's been a trial to get those read anyway). I don't know how much to trust your existing test, so I simply give it zero trust and leave it at that.

Never trust a nitrogen reading. They vary by temperature, time of day, moisture in the soil, and so on. Mine, as it's fed organically most of the time, usually simply reads low. That's true, but it's always available, at a low level, regardless of most conditions (except old bone dry when it would read near-zero).

"Too much nitrogen" isn't usually a major issue in fall unless you're burning the lawn, so no harm there. I just dropped some urea before a rainfall, my second October drop (the first one being organic at the beginning of the month), for a grand total of 1.5 pounds N this month, atop about the same for September. I fed organically in late August. And once in May. So far, I'm at 5.5 pounds of N per thousand square feet for the season (mostly organic, mostly delivered after September first).

The image below is from October sixth, just before a short drought that's about to break.

I'll drop my last shot of nitrogen in November when growth stops (for me, usually around November 20th, but it can and does vary by quite a lot). Since the long-range forecast is 5 to 10 degrees warm, it might not be until December this year.

There are no laws governing when I can drop my last nitrogen load, though.


Image

MrChuckDanger
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by MrChuckDanger » November 3rd, 2021, 9:35 pm

All - appreciate the responses! I apologize for the long delay in posting back and bumping this thread, work has gotten the better of me.

Posting an update as hope for anyone else in a similar situation. The posters suggesting I wasn't too bad off were right! While it's only been a couple of weeks, continuing following the fall regimen (which I had already sort of started by accident) and a bunch of rain seems to have benefited the lawn greatly. Perhaps I scalped it too hard reducing the HOC down to 2.25" (I'm up to 2.75" now), or maybe some of the grass underneath was still waking up from the heat of the summer, but things are looking pretty OK.

Appreciate all the thoughts and advice - will continue the fall regimen as best I can w/ fertilizer bans, order up and do the Logan test as early as possible next year, and pull way back on the N in the spring! Thank you all for your help!


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edslawn
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by edslawn » November 5th, 2021, 1:47 pm

Looks awesome!

Hmmm... I wonder if I put down feed grade Urea, am I fertilizing or feeding the local wildlife? ;)

bolson32
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Re: Trouble with KBG on Long Island, NY

Post by bolson32 » November 5th, 2021, 9:10 pm

edslawn wrote:
November 5th, 2021, 1:47 pm
Looks awesome!

Hmmm... I wonder if I put down feed grade Urea, am I fertilizing or feeding the local wildlife? ;)
I assume you're joking, but in case you're not or someone else comes along, there's no difference lol.

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