Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 - 121 (w/photos)
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Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 - 121 (w/photos)
So after a year of planning for my rear yard (and front shade area) renovation, I pulled the trigger and RU'd this morning at 5:30 AM. I scalped down to 1/2 inch at 5PM and am going to seed/topdress, etc. tomorrow morning. It was a mix of everything from Scotts Heavy Traffic Mix (P Rye and KBG, but the latter probably never germinated), Jonathan Green Heavy Traffic (basically Perennial Rye with TTTF which never germinated because the Rye came up so fast), a bunch of different fescues, and lots of Poa. A month ago I poweraked and have been watering it to get the weeds to germinate, but mother nature did most of the work. I've kept it mowed at 1.5 inches to encourage the weeds to germinate.
I was thinking of RU'ing my front shade walkway, but decided I'd get too much flack my my wife, so I scalped down to 1 inch.
I'm putting last years SSS shade mix in the front shade area (it still has Brilliant), and am putting the following down in the rear yard: Brilliant (30%), Nuglade (30%), Moonlight (30%) and Bedazzled (10%).
Here is a picture after RU'ing this morning (around 7AM):
Here it is after I scalped (I also blew the whole lawn and full power with my Stihl 600 about an inch off the grass, its almost like a power rake at that distance):
Here is the front walkway (only scalped to 1 inch, no RU):
I have very good irrigation so I'm confident I can keep it from burning out. The rear lawn gets about 6 hours of sun, so the grass, even on the hottest days, gets a break from the sun in the morning and late afternoon.
If all goes well I'll be able to put down Dimension this fall and get a head start on the inevitable Poa.
I was thinking of RU'ing my front shade walkway, but decided I'd get too much flack my my wife, so I scalped down to 1 inch.
I'm putting last years SSS shade mix in the front shade area (it still has Brilliant), and am putting the following down in the rear yard: Brilliant (30%), Nuglade (30%), Moonlight (30%) and Bedazzled (10%).
Here is a picture after RU'ing this morning (around 7AM):
Here it is after I scalped (I also blew the whole lawn and full power with my Stihl 600 about an inch off the grass, its almost like a power rake at that distance):
Here is the front walkway (only scalped to 1 inch, no RU):
I have very good irrigation so I'm confident I can keep it from burning out. The rear lawn gets about 6 hours of sun, so the grass, even on the hottest days, gets a break from the sun in the morning and late afternoon.
If all goes well I'll be able to put down Dimension this fall and get a head start on the inevitable Poa.
Last edited by jglongisland on October 21st, 2009, 9:52 am, edited 12 times in total.
- talldesk
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
I thought the old lawn is supposed to be RU'd multiple times, at least twice with a 2 week break in between, before scalping down and seeding. You have a really elite mix of KBG in the rear yard. Looking forward to see the results of this rule breaking renovation.
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
Well if you're going to break the rules, might as well go large...jglongisland wrote:I pulled the trigger and RU'd this morning at 5:30 AM. I scalped down to 1/2 inch at 5PM and am going to seed/topdress, etc. tomorrow morning.
-Patrick
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
So you are seeding now because of poa? The only thing with that is I think you could be seeing poa germinating with your seed. This past week, we finally got 2" of rain in what was a very dry month of May and early June. I even let my lawn go dormant for a week to let much of the poa die out. Now, I'm getting a ton of new poa germinating!!! A ton!!! This area was hit with Dimension early April and it probably is now worn off. I was debating on seeding now too but wasn't sure if the Dimension had worn off since I applied it at the heavy rate. Now, I can only hope summer heat and drought will kill what is germinating now so I can seed early August and pre-m labor day. I will not be playing around with ethofumesate this fall--there will be blanket applications in back and I have already upgraded my backpack sprayer with a two nozzle boom. Death to poa!
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
Patrick,
In an ideal world I would have RU'd, waited 10 day and RU'd again, but it wasn't worth the grief I would get ("you killed the lawn, it was perfectly fine"). My compromise was to scalp it down to 1.5 inches and power rake it a month ago and then water the heck out of it to get the poa and any other crap in there to germinate (it did work, I have some big poa patches that I RU'd in April that have little poa plants growing. All that is now dead.
I'm not seeding specifically because of Poa, I really wanted a KBG lawn in my backyard for is spreading/healing properties. I tried TTTF, which although dark, doesn't fill in and kind of has the florida thick blade look.
As I have said in other posts, I've got both my kids at sleepaway camp for 7 weeks starting this Thursday, so this is the ideal time to start a new lawn where there will be no foot traffic.
I purposely didn't put any pre-M down in these areas (although I'll use Tupersan tomorrow).
In an ideal world I would have RU'd, waited 10 day and RU'd again, but it wasn't worth the grief I would get ("you killed the lawn, it was perfectly fine"). My compromise was to scalp it down to 1.5 inches and power rake it a month ago and then water the heck out of it to get the poa and any other crap in there to germinate (it did work, I have some big poa patches that I RU'd in April that have little poa plants growing. All that is now dead.
I'm not seeding specifically because of Poa, I really wanted a KBG lawn in my backyard for is spreading/healing properties. I tried TTTF, which although dark, doesn't fill in and kind of has the florida thick blade look.
As I have said in other posts, I've got both my kids at sleepaway camp for 7 weeks starting this Thursday, so this is the ideal time to start a new lawn where there will be no foot traffic.
I purposely didn't put any pre-M down in these areas (although I'll use Tupersan tomorrow).
- talldesk
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
jg, putting down more grass seeds than usual may help.
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
JG,
I wasn't trying to criticize- I understand you have other pressures. And as David said in another post:
-Patrick
I wasn't trying to criticize- I understand you have other pressures. And as David said in another post:
My surprise is that you mowed the same day you applied RU. Glyphosate is a systemic herbicide, and I would not expect that it had enough time to transfer to the roots to kill the plants - but this is certainly not my expertise.If people never break the "rules," we never learn anything.
-Patrick
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
Patrick,
I took a chance on the RU'ing and mowing; I waiting about 12 hours and figured the grass was so short in the first place the RU didn't have a long way to go. No offense taken, this is somewhat unchartered territory. I would have RU'd a day or two earlier before the final scalping cut but its been raining nearly every day for 3 weeks.
To make things even more of a challenge we have Thunderstorms expected tonight that could deliver 1-2 inches of rain. I'm going to roll those seeds in very well and hope that the Peat and PennMulch hold everything in place.
I took a chance on the RU'ing and mowing; I waiting about 12 hours and figured the grass was so short in the first place the RU didn't have a long way to go. No offense taken, this is somewhat unchartered territory. I would have RU'd a day or two earlier before the final scalping cut but its been raining nearly every day for 3 weeks.
To make things even more of a challenge we have Thunderstorms expected tonight that could deliver 1-2 inches of rain. I'm going to roll those seeds in very well and hope that the Peat and PennMulch hold everything in place.
- andy10917
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
Jon:To make things even more of a challenge we have Thunderstorms expected tonight that could deliver 1-2 inches of rain.
The forecast has changed and you only have until 1pm-2pm before the heavy rains arrive. Run, Forrest, run!!!
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - Day 1 - RU photos...
I got done at 11:15, started the lawn part of my day at 7AM (started at 6:15 - I planted 3 phlox and sprayed GreenCure on my Phlox and roses).
So what did I do for about four hours:
1) Spread the KBG mix in the backyard in both directions, used about 8.5 lbs on 2,800 sq. ft.
2) Mixed this year and last years SSS shade mix (so I have Brilliant and America) and spread about 4 lbs on 1,200 sq. ft. (this was an overseed, no RU).
3) Rolled everything with the roller I rented from HD; boy those things are heavy (over 200 lbs when filled with water). This is the first time I used a roller; personally I think its superior to power raking as it mushes those seeds right into the soil. All the rain put the seed bed in perfect condition, the seeds almost disappeared in the soil (especially the KBG, the fine fescue seeds are much bigger).
3a) - step not taken - if the ground had been dry I would have watered the seed at this point to make sure they were wet before the Peat and PM went down. I've found that the Peat can soak up so much water that it may not make it to the seed. The ground was and is thoroughly saturated.
4) Then I spread Tupersan everywhere.
5) Then I spread 3.75 50 lb bags of PennMulch, didn't have enough for the entire area so I sacrificed some of the overseed shade area. Unfortunately it wouldn't flow well through the Earthway 2150 so I had to do it by hand with a big plastic cup. That added an extra hour on the project.
6) Put a light application of starter (heavier in the areas without PennMulch), PM has its own fertilizer.
7) Spread 4.5 big bales of PeatMoss with my "throw" method. This time I remembered to wear safety glasses, the dust ends up covering you head to toe.
8) Used the 36" long rake I rented at HD to smooth out any lumps of Peat.
9) Ran the three sprinkler zones for a few minutes a piece to get this concoction to "hold" in case a huge thunderstorm came through.
It turns out that we have had perfect light rain for about 5 hours, with a short break. I've found that if you get steady slow rain before the heavy stuff comes the top dressing hold pretty well. It seems to soak better than the sprinklers (probably because it is so moderate).
The first time I seeded this area was 2005, so I've spent 3 years trying to get the lawn I wanted. My 2007 front lawn renovation convinced me I had to start over and I'm glad I did. The prior experience certainly helped as this is the first time I had enough of everything and had it all pre-positioned ready to go (my back yard is up a big flight of steps, it takes a surprising amount of time to haul all this crap up there).
Here are some pictures:
The front shade area that was overseeded:
Backyard from second floor.
The most important one taken at around 3:30 - notice how there is no puddling anywhere on the lawn (I've had that happen in the past and did everything I could imagine to make sure it wouldn't happen this time):
Now comes the waiting. Based on prior experience I would expect to see the "green shoots" (ode to Ben Bernanke) Thursday, but I'll be away.
So what did I do for about four hours:
1) Spread the KBG mix in the backyard in both directions, used about 8.5 lbs on 2,800 sq. ft.
2) Mixed this year and last years SSS shade mix (so I have Brilliant and America) and spread about 4 lbs on 1,200 sq. ft. (this was an overseed, no RU).
3) Rolled everything with the roller I rented from HD; boy those things are heavy (over 200 lbs when filled with water). This is the first time I used a roller; personally I think its superior to power raking as it mushes those seeds right into the soil. All the rain put the seed bed in perfect condition, the seeds almost disappeared in the soil (especially the KBG, the fine fescue seeds are much bigger).
3a) - step not taken - if the ground had been dry I would have watered the seed at this point to make sure they were wet before the Peat and PM went down. I've found that the Peat can soak up so much water that it may not make it to the seed. The ground was and is thoroughly saturated.
4) Then I spread Tupersan everywhere.
5) Then I spread 3.75 50 lb bags of PennMulch, didn't have enough for the entire area so I sacrificed some of the overseed shade area. Unfortunately it wouldn't flow well through the Earthway 2150 so I had to do it by hand with a big plastic cup. That added an extra hour on the project.
6) Put a light application of starter (heavier in the areas without PennMulch), PM has its own fertilizer.
7) Spread 4.5 big bales of PeatMoss with my "throw" method. This time I remembered to wear safety glasses, the dust ends up covering you head to toe.
8) Used the 36" long rake I rented at HD to smooth out any lumps of Peat.
9) Ran the three sprinkler zones for a few minutes a piece to get this concoction to "hold" in case a huge thunderstorm came through.
It turns out that we have had perfect light rain for about 5 hours, with a short break. I've found that if you get steady slow rain before the heavy stuff comes the top dressing hold pretty well. It seems to soak better than the sprinklers (probably because it is so moderate).
The first time I seeded this area was 2005, so I've spent 3 years trying to get the lawn I wanted. My 2007 front lawn renovation convinced me I had to start over and I'm glad I did. The prior experience certainly helped as this is the first time I had enough of everything and had it all pre-positioned ready to go (my back yard is up a big flight of steps, it takes a surprising amount of time to haul all this crap up there).
Here are some pictures:
The front shade area that was overseeded:
Backyard from second floor.
The most important one taken at around 3:30 - notice how there is no puddling anywhere on the lawn (I've had that happen in the past and did everything I could imagine to make sure it wouldn't happen this time):
Now comes the waiting. Based on prior experience I would expect to see the "green shoots" (ode to Ben Bernanke) Thursday, but I'll be away.
- turf_toes
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
Wow! You know this is a high brow lawncare forum when you get posts with references to the chairman of the Federal Reserve!
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
Anyone else know who Tom Keene and Ken Prewitt are? If they do then they'll get the humor in the green shoots comments.
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
Best of luck with it all, Jon!
- turf_toes
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
I think you need to be a bit of a news junkie to know who they are.jglongisland wrote:Anyone else know who Tom Keene and Ken Prewitt are? If they do then they'll get the humor in the green shoots comments.
(I have a couple of friends who work for Bloomberg).
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
Since August, when the world of finance (I do commercial mortgages) REALLY started to fall apart, I became hooked on those guys. Two of the smartest people in media. They are constantly making green shoots jokes.
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
Here are two shots to show the RU effect (I cut the grass 12 hours after application, which "technically" isn't enough time). Keep in mind we have had about 2 hours of sun since Friday, rain each day and the temp hasn't broken 73.
Here is the rear yard that was RU'd, no new growth, some grass still has a bit of green in it.
Here is the front, no RU, just scalping. Grass is growing due to all the rain.
Here is the rear yard that was RU'd, no new growth, some grass still has a bit of green in it.
Here is the front, no RU, just scalping. Grass is growing due to all the rain.
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 & 2 (w/ photos)
Here are some day 5 pix. Won't be back until the 3rd, I expect to have germination by them.
Already have a lot of leaves (another reason I did this now and not September). RU effect really starting to show (if we get warm/sun the rest of the grass will turn brown). Of course its raining again.
Close up:
Non RU overseeding area (grass is getting pretty tall):
Overhead shot (new view):
Already have a lot of leaves (another reason I did this now and not September). RU effect really starting to show (if we get warm/sun the rest of the grass will turn brown). Of course its raining again.
Close up:
Non RU overseeding area (grass is getting pretty tall):
Overhead shot (new view):
- Abyss
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 - 5 (w/ photos)
dont know if you wanna do it before you leave or not, but you could scalp down that grass again and you'd have more area for growth for the new seedlings. One last hoorah to try to change things over as much as possible from old grass to new
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 - 5 (w/ photos)
Just a suggestion but it might be a good idea to put down a broad spectrum fungicide before the grass sprouts, and reapply as often as recommended. There is nothing so disheatening as seeing your new grass wilt, discolor and die as a result of a fungal disease, I speak from experience.
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Re: Rule breaking renovation - log - Day 1 - 5 (w/ photos)
I plan on a heavy dose of cornmeal in about 3 weeks after the seeds have germinated as an anti-fungal measure. Trying to keep away from fungicides as I've been organic other than pre-M for since 2008.
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