Poa Plantation Nightmare and Renovation

[andy10917]

I'm sure you're all sick and tired about hearing me rant about my Poa Trivialis nightmare, but when Drinyth posted his story of waking at 3am dreaming of being surrounded and chased by Poa Triv, I had to post my real life nightmare.

Here's the lawn back in May (a Fall, 2008 renovation). The color darkened a lot more in June, but if you look carefully just beyond the small garden in the lower left corner, you can see the lighter areas of PT infestation underway. As the lawn darkened as the "Emblem" matured a bit (added in late April and not in this picture), the PT looked like it was "plugged in to a light socket".



These areas that were "brighter" exploded as we got 38 inches of rain in May/June/July, expanding from maybe 50 sq ft each to as much as 1000 sq ft each by vegetative propagation, probably due to mulch mowing. Eventually, they crowded out and smothered the KBG as they did the Poa Triv "lay down".

I recently treated the entire lawn with "Certainty" to kill the PT, before I lost ALL of my KBG. The product worked as advertised, and I ran to the front porch every morning to see what I had remaining.

Here's what's left in the worst areas:





Yes, these pictures were after a dethatch to get out the dead Poa and a major core aeration to prep for a reseeding, but that is heartbreaking to do to yourself.

[s1mpl3k1d]

No need to worry buddy how your lawn looks! I really love the way how your garden is set up. Honestly, it is gorgeous!!!

How much is Certainty? I would just like to know so I can save now. I remember, it's really expensive. Are there other ways to kill PT?

[Drinyth]

Ugh. That's gotta be hard to do especially after months of waiting for it to fill back in. How long ago were those dethatched/aerated pictures taken?

You've got a beautiful piece of property there, Andy. I love all the mature trees surrounding your property. Loads of potential. You'll have to post pictures again when things thicken and darken up!

[andy10917]

"Certainty" goes for about $140 online, and you can get it at some Lesco stores although there is a funky $25 delivery charge that they often add ($25 for a box that weighs a few ounces?). I have a legitimate source that gets it to me for about 30% less if you want to PM me. The tiny bottle will treat about 109,000 sq ft for PT, so its basically a lifetime supply for many folks.

"Tenacity" is a new herbicide that will also treat PT in KBG, but it is still winding its way through the regulatory process. It is currently labelled for use on Sod Farms and Golf Courses. A federal OK for use on residential lawns happened in March of this year, but state OK's are still not there. I'm not sure if "Tenacity" is professional-applicator only, or if it will go general-registration at some point.

Definitely DON'T use "Certainty" if you have a mixed-grass lawn!

[andy10917]

How long ago were those dethatched/aerated pictures taken?

The dethatching was done on Saturday after mowing down to 2" to expose the dead PT, and the core aeration on Sunday. The pictures were taken at 1pm today.

[s1mpl3k1d]

Ok. I hope, I won't have any PT. Is mine considered mixed grass lawn? The cultivars are all KBG.

[MorpheusPA]

Owie. However, it doesn't look like your incursion was too bad, really, and KBG fills in so fast that it should be done by the end of September. Remember that my trashcan lid sized stuff that had no issues closing up.

[andy10917]

Is mine considered mixed grass lawn? The cultivars are all KBG.

You're OK with all KBG cultivars. At 0.5 oz/acre, Certainty can be used on KBG and Bentgrass. At 0.75 oz/acre, it kills the Bentgrass. At 1 oz/acre, hasta luego lawn - you've got the equivalent of high-priced RoundUp. Don't make mistakes - there is no "fudge factor" in the application rates.

[andy10917]

For those of you that doubt the statement that Poa Triv can spread vegatatively from pieces of stolons, here is a picture of some of the material that I threw into the woods LAST AUGUST 15th. It is literally growing on a pile of dethatched material without direct contact with the soil. The picture was taken in late April. The pile continued to grow until sometime in July, when the summer finally got it. There was no "live grass" in the pile when I threw it into the woods - only dethatcher rubble. It had been dethatched and then chopped up by a lawn tractor.

[jglongisland]

Andy, what concentration did you use of Certainty? Any discoloration on the rest of the lawn?

These high temps are probably helping.

Also, have you ever used a SunCalc to measure your sun? Looks like you get some shade with those trees.

[andy10917]

Andy, what concentration did you use of Certainty?

I used .75 oz/acre rate, because there was some creeping bentgrass in there also, which I wanted killed.

Any discoloration on the rest of the lawn?

Oh, yeah. The remaining KBG is temporarily stunted (not growing) and lighter than it was, but yellowing hasn't been a big factor (yet). KBG is wondering what the hell happened, but appears like it will make it OK.

Here's a shot of what a similar view to the "original shots" looks like now - with the sun directly overhead earlier, all the photos looked too yellow.

Looks like you get some shade with those trees.

A ton of shade. That's why I'm trying to use "Emblem" - it has some shade tolerance and is aggressive, and I'm hoping that it's spreading habit will be able to keep up with the thinning nature of shady area KBG. It's just a theory. I'm not removing trees, however - this is a heavily tree-lined country road and a treeless property would be way out-of-place. And to save anyone the trouble of recommending "thinning" the trees, the answer is No - trees are as much of my property as grass is, and I'm not going to turn a 120-year old specimen Maple into a lollipop to grow grass. If the grass dies, I plant Hosta.

[PJD]

Hang in there Andy your on the lawn comeback trail!

Plus you've got that great land that grows great grass!!!!
(sorry I can't get enough of that one!)

[gryd]

Andy,

Do you think the triv survived the RU when you renovated or sprang back from seeds?

Greg

[Zenroot]

Jeeze Andy, sorry about the luck. I'm sure the summer we have had didn't help at all either. That is a borderline property for shade as you mention.
There will be trials going out in the next few weeks to try to dial in a rate for Certainty to slightly stunt poa and bent in a 98%% KBG stand at a prestigious location. Object being to transition to 100% KBG with minimum (or no) discoloration. I know multiple pest applications are not up most peoples alley here, but the info should be interesting.
I know we will see much greener pictures of your yard by the end of October.

[andy10917]

Do you think the triv survived the RU when you renovated or sprang back from seeds?

I don't like RoundUp and didn't use it. In my experience it hurts earthworm populations badly and I'm a big believer in soils. That said, I think I would have avoided a lot of this if I had used the R-word. I did a scalp, no-till renovation. Live and learn. I guess that's why I do soil stuff on the forums and not renovation advice, eh?

I've learned a ton about Triv this Summer as I tried to decide what to do about my problem (while I heard the stuff eating my lawn in the background). The biggest learning is that Triv almost never seeds in a lawn - unless the lawn is left to grow to a foot or so, it just won't happen because of where Triv seedheads form. Anyone that tells you that they've seen PT seedheads on a lawn is probably mixing up Poa Annua and Triv. You either get Triv from a seed vendor or vegatatively from stolon chunks off a mower, etc used on another property. Once you have it though, look out! If the weather is wet enough, tiny (mulched) stolon chunks will grow and spread rapidly. A few 50 sq ft patches spread to 1000 sq ft patches in 10-12 weeks if you're mulch-mowing twice a week is my experience.

[nothing0]

Andy-

Your property looks great.

I guess I'm just confirming the obvious. The picture of your dethatcher rubble shows the beast was awakened and spread by breaking the soil. Do you think the seed was in the soil?.. In the seed u purchased? I wonder how much the R-word would have helped.

[MorpheusPA]

Given the sheer number of seeds and their viability in the soil (decades), it's just a problem anybody has who has ever had or lives in a neighborhood that has ever had P. annua.

On that front, P. trivialis is easier. Once abolished, it tends to stay gone, or at least controllable. I found another five patches this week of annua I had to take care of.

Dimension, here I come. It arrives tomorrow.

[LawnStriper]

Can't wait to see the emblem!

[Drinyth]

Given the sheer number of seeds and their viability in the soil (decades), it's just a problem anybody has who has ever had or lives in a neighborhood that has ever had P. annua.

On that front, P. trivialis is easier. Once abolished, it tends to stay gone, or at least controllable. I found another five patches this week of annua I had to take care of.

Dimension, here I come. It arrives tomorrow.

That leads to another question. So for those that are renovating, after applying RU and killing the lawn deader than dead, when you go and dethatch and/or core aerate the soil don't you just stir up all those seeds and have them ready to germinate with the new seed that you're planting?

I always wondered why it was emphasized that you make sure everything is dead for weeks before planting, if the disturbing of the soil is just going to expose seeds that have been lying dormant in the soil?

[turf_toes]

I'm not suggesting anyone else do what I'm about to describe...

But I've never waited weeks for the grass to die before seeding. Heck, I applied roundup (spot sprayed some remaining green areas), two hours before seeding my last renovation. Everything came up just fine.

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