Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground shoots
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Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground shoots
What am I seeing? (I don't have a photo at this time, but might be able to get one next weekend).
My turf type perennial ryegrass appears to have some sort of shoot that allows it to spread and form daughter plants. These shoots don't look exactly like the pictures of stolons I've googled.
But I've been doing an experiment over the past few months. In a crack in the driveway, there are some clumps of PR growing, from seed that accidently dropped there last fall while seeding part of the lawn. Every once in a while, I'll dig out some PR from the crack, and plant it in a pot, or in the lawn to fill in a spot. When I come back a few months later, the source plant in the crack has filled out a bit. When I remove a plant, I often notice these shoots connecting two plants together. Usually one plant is smaller than the other. These shoots are compsed of two parts...one that travels down and/or away from the crown of the "parent" plant, and another that travels upward to the "daughter" plant. There appears to be some sort of node in between the two parts. The shoots themselves are covered in a brown husk that looks like the brown paper from a grocery store bag, or dried corn husk. I'm not sure if it would be considered a stolon, or what it is. I've heard that PR doesn't typically have stolons, but may have pseudo stolons. Whatever these are, they're definitely not tillers, as I can separate the individual, connected plants without splitting them at the crowns, and certainly without destroying them. And when I transplant them, they take. So these shoots are some sort of spreading stem or root parts.
I'm 100% sure the grass in question is PR...as sure as I could ever be, no exaggeration. What are these shoots I'm describing? Are they the stoloniferous components that some have observed in the latest PR cultivars? The cultivars I used were not advertised as spreading cultivars, but they were touted as highly improved.
My turf type perennial ryegrass appears to have some sort of shoot that allows it to spread and form daughter plants. These shoots don't look exactly like the pictures of stolons I've googled.
But I've been doing an experiment over the past few months. In a crack in the driveway, there are some clumps of PR growing, from seed that accidently dropped there last fall while seeding part of the lawn. Every once in a while, I'll dig out some PR from the crack, and plant it in a pot, or in the lawn to fill in a spot. When I come back a few months later, the source plant in the crack has filled out a bit. When I remove a plant, I often notice these shoots connecting two plants together. Usually one plant is smaller than the other. These shoots are compsed of two parts...one that travels down and/or away from the crown of the "parent" plant, and another that travels upward to the "daughter" plant. There appears to be some sort of node in between the two parts. The shoots themselves are covered in a brown husk that looks like the brown paper from a grocery store bag, or dried corn husk. I'm not sure if it would be considered a stolon, or what it is. I've heard that PR doesn't typically have stolons, but may have pseudo stolons. Whatever these are, they're definitely not tillers, as I can separate the individual, connected plants without splitting them at the crowns, and certainly without destroying them. And when I transplant them, they take. So these shoots are some sort of spreading stem or root parts.
I'm 100% sure the grass in question is PR...as sure as I could ever be, no exaggeration. What are these shoots I'm describing? Are they the stoloniferous components that some have observed in the latest PR cultivars? The cultivars I used were not advertised as spreading cultivars, but they were touted as highly improved.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Do you have pics?
- Michael Wise
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Lawn_OCD wrote:Do you have pics?
DAMN you, first paragraph!!! Always hiding important information!Green wrote:(I don't have a photo at this time, but might be able to get one next weekend).
***(Just F'in' with you Lawn_OCD)***
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- nothing0
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
This is too funny. I was thinking the same thing about my fescue today.. no pics.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Tall or fine fescue? Because Tall Fescue is known to have a little spreading habit to it. (As is creeping red fine fescue.)nothing0 wrote:This is too funny. I was thinking the same thing about my fescue today.. no pics.
- nothing0
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Tall 3rd millennium srp. "self repair potential" I'm going to keep an eye on it. It could have been stray seeds but I'm pretty sure what I saw. It looked like a 'daughter plant'. Can't prove it, but it's something I can watch for.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
I wouldn't be surprised...the seed you used was practically advertised to spread...it's going to spread at least a little bit. Even K-31 types seem to spread a little bit. But I posted about Ryegrass. Apparently, ryegrass does spread by stolon-like thingies contrary to popular belief, just not as readily as TTTF (which of course spreads much less readily than KBG).nothing0 wrote:Tall 3rd millennium srp. "self repair potential" I'm going to keep an eye on it. It could have been stray seeds but I'm pretty sure what I saw. It looked like a 'daughter plant'. Can't prove it, but it's something I can watch for.
Intersting read on Ryegrass spreading via "stolons": http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1 ... 9.10420845
Quote: "Stolons may be induced to resemble rhizomes by burial but are usually distinguishable by the whithered remains of the vegetative leaves."
Perhaps that's the brown covering I saw!
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Photos!!
First image shows the stolon-like connection between the parent plant (left) and daughter plant (right) growing in the driveway crack.
Second shows shows the leaf structure (note midrib) proving this is TTPR and NOT Bent.
Third shows the entire plant dug out.
Note a daughter plant at 8:00. I got more than five "daughter" plants in various forms from separating this one plant. Some had more roots than others (some had almost none and appeared to practically be just tillers with their own crowns).
Fourth shows the stolon-like structures in detail. These all lead to "daughter" plants.
Fifth shows that each daughter plant has its own crown (and often, roots). You can also see how the "stolon" (near my thumb nail) connects to the redish colored crown.
The last two images show daughter plants after being separated (one still has another attached to it actually) When separating, you hear just a slight ripping sound when you severe the "stolon". They divide with minimal effort, and can be planted elsewhere. Note they do have their own roots in most cases. And in the last image, the plants that are still connected appear connected at the root level, something that I don't see quite as often. (Maybe one out of 20 or 30 connections is connected this way.)
And no, this is not Bentgrass exhibiting false crowning. It might look like it in some of the pics, but I assure you it is a specific cultivar of TTPR that was in a three-way blend I've been using. Note the midrib!! I'm not sure which of the three cultivars it is, but all of them were products of Allied Seed, and were in a ryegrass mix purchased at Agway. A good part of my lawn is the exact same grass. It appears to be really good stuff, too...and has stolons to boot! It wasn't even advertised as RPR.
First image shows the stolon-like connection between the parent plant (left) and daughter plant (right) growing in the driveway crack.
Second shows shows the leaf structure (note midrib) proving this is TTPR and NOT Bent.
Third shows the entire plant dug out.
Note a daughter plant at 8:00. I got more than five "daughter" plants in various forms from separating this one plant. Some had more roots than others (some had almost none and appeared to practically be just tillers with their own crowns).
Fourth shows the stolon-like structures in detail. These all lead to "daughter" plants.
Fifth shows that each daughter plant has its own crown (and often, roots). You can also see how the "stolon" (near my thumb nail) connects to the redish colored crown.
The last two images show daughter plants after being separated (one still has another attached to it actually) When separating, you hear just a slight ripping sound when you severe the "stolon". They divide with minimal effort, and can be planted elsewhere. Note they do have their own roots in most cases. And in the last image, the plants that are still connected appear connected at the root level, something that I don't see quite as often. (Maybe one out of 20 or 30 connections is connected this way.)
And no, this is not Bentgrass exhibiting false crowning. It might look like it in some of the pics, but I assure you it is a specific cultivar of TTPR that was in a three-way blend I've been using. Note the midrib!! I'm not sure which of the three cultivars it is, but all of them were products of Allied Seed, and were in a ryegrass mix purchased at Agway. A good part of my lawn is the exact same grass. It appears to be really good stuff, too...and has stolons to boot! It wasn't even advertised as RPR.
Last edited by Green on October 21st, 2012, 2:28 pm, edited 17 times in total.
- simpson
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Am I missing the pictures?
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
simpson wrote:Am I missing the pictures?
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Had an uploading issue. Should work now.
And yes, the leaves have rust...the grass was growing in the driveway.
Another thing...having recently planted Firecracker LS and Bullseye TTTF and seeing what it looks like now, I have to say this ryegrass looks a bit more like TTTF than some of the other ryegrass I've seen (which look a bit more like KBG). What I mean by this, is this stuff has more of a pointed tip, not as keeled as some ryegrasses, and it also has very prominent veins compared to other ryes, though it also has a midrib like rye should, and unlike TTTF. I've seen other rye with a very keeled, bluegrass-like tip.
I wonder if this is one of those ryegrass cultivars with a good amount of TTTF genes in it...hence the spreading ability. (Purposeful gene transfer between the two species is apparently getting more common in selective breeding programs.) In the lawn, this grass is an extremely dense grass, and does seem to be able to repair slight holes over time to an extent. Contrasted with another ryegrass cultivar in one part of the yard, their habits are totally different...the other is clearly a bunch-type grass, and tends to thin out over time.
And I don't think I'm just exhibiting wishful thinking or confirmation bias...the pictures I posted should speak for themselves. There is something interesting about this stuff and its growth habit.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
I have two more pics form the digging out process. Note the "daughter" plant on the right is rooted on its own, and note the "stolon" on top of my finger in the second photo.
The article I linked to yesterday also mentions earthworms, I believe as possibly promoting stolon generation in rye grass. Well, what did I find when I dug it up...an earthworm...in the crack in the driveway! The article also mentions tires rolling over the plant causing the crown to be pushed under the soil, possibly stimulating stolons as well. Of course, in the driveway, that happens all the time. So far, it seems I'm indeed seeing ryegrass "stolons" and witnessing its spreading ability. I'll be continuing my experiments...in fact, I just replanted the various daughter plants in the ground in a cleared square section of the lawn. I'll observe them over the Fall and again in the spring...and if I can prevent family members from spraying Roundup or vinegar on the driveway, I can see if the original driveway plants regenerate from the small sections I purposely left alone. (Any plant that survives being in asphalt for two years AND spreads is a heat-tolerant plant, and deserves a place near the curb in the lawn. If it does regenerate, I'll probably dig out and pot more next year.)
The article I linked to yesterday also mentions earthworms, I believe as possibly promoting stolon generation in rye grass. Well, what did I find when I dug it up...an earthworm...in the crack in the driveway! The article also mentions tires rolling over the plant causing the crown to be pushed under the soil, possibly stimulating stolons as well. Of course, in the driveway, that happens all the time. So far, it seems I'm indeed seeing ryegrass "stolons" and witnessing its spreading ability. I'll be continuing my experiments...in fact, I just replanted the various daughter plants in the ground in a cleared square section of the lawn. I'll observe them over the Fall and again in the spring...and if I can prevent family members from spraying Roundup or vinegar on the driveway, I can see if the original driveway plants regenerate from the small sections I purposely left alone. (Any plant that survives being in asphalt for two years AND spreads is a heat-tolerant plant, and deserves a place near the curb in the lawn. If it does regenerate, I'll probably dig out and pot more next year.)
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Remember, all the smaller plants seen in the photos came from that one plant I pulled. I separated them. Are the photos above consistent with what one might expect to observe from ryegrass that is tillering normally? Have I just gone off the deep end in thinking there's something strange happening? The lack of responses is making me wonder...
And yes, it's Perennial Rye, not Bent or Poa Annua, or KBG, or TTTF, etc. (One of my other ryegrass cultivars has been mistaken for Poa once before due to the fact it was clumpy, a problem now fixed by overseeding). ) Note the midrib and veins if you're a doubter. (You can also see the shiny backsides in some of the other pics.)
And yes, it's Perennial Rye, not Bent or Poa Annua, or KBG, or TTTF, etc. (One of my other ryegrass cultivars has been mistaken for Poa once before due to the fact it was clumpy, a problem now fixed by overseeding). ) Note the midrib and veins if you're a doubter. (You can also see the shiny backsides in some of the other pics.)
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
When PR leaf blades get buried, do they usually root?
- sc4dr
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
I'm not a pr expert, but I too have had pr very similar to what you are seeing. Same exact look with stolons and everything. I thought it was triv at first, but then I noticed the veins in the blades. I don't have much of it left in the yard because it doesn't take drought stress well, and its much denser and finer than the rest of the lawn. So I pulled up most of it, and seeded with tttf. It would make for a gorgeous monostand however!
On another note green. I've noticed activity on this site has slowed dramatically over the last couple weeks, which would explain the lack of response.
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On another note green. I've noticed activity on this site has slowed dramatically over the last couple weeks, which would explain the lack of response.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
sc4dr wrote:I'm not a pr expert, but I too have had pr very similar to what you are seeing. Same exact look with stolons and everything. I thought it was triv at first, but then I noticed the veins in the blades. I don't have much of it left in the yard because it doesn't take drought stress well, and its much denser and finer than the rest of the lawn. So I pulled up most of it, and seeded with tttf. It would make for a gorgeous monostand however!
On another note green. I've noticed activity on this site has slowed dramatically over the last couple weeks, which would explain the lack of response.
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So you feel these are stolon-like, or rhizome-like shoots as well, and you have seen similar ones in PR yourself. You don't consider these tillers, right? That is encouraging. All I can figure is that some of the newer PR (this was my first time using PR last Fall) have this spreading ability, even if undocumented. In case anyone is interested in experimenting and wants to get hold of these cultivars, they were in an Allied Seed Perennial Rye blend sold by Agway. The specific cultivars were ASP6001, ASP6003, and ASP6006. They are pretty well-ranked in NTEP and form a nice looking grass (though they are also not the greatest when it comes to high heat in the summer, as with most PR). Allied has also bred an ASP1001GL (GL probably stands for Gray leaf resistance) that they advertise as Elite. I haven't tried it yet, but I do have a bag of seed containing some, which I'll use next year. So, it seems that these and perhaps other TTPR cultivars might be an alternative to the two or three "spreading" PRs advertised as RPR, Fiesta 4, etc. The interesting thing is, the pdfs for the Allied cultivars do mention "superior density" and they also compare them to Fiesta 4, among others, citing the NTEP ratings.
When you look at the Fiesta 4 pdf, you can see a really nice photo of these short stolons; they look just like what I have seen and what you seem to have also seen (and for others who haven't seen it, you have my pics!) The key is the stolons I've seen are usually on the short side, an inch or two usually. but I've seen them almost every time I've dug out a plant.
Fiesta 4: http://www.pickseed.com/usa/Products/PD ... a_4_ts.pdf
So, it appears Agway actually sold something rivaling the cutting edge, and that might be a stand-in for the RPR by Barenbrug, or the Fiesta 4 as far as being able to spread...I'm surprised Agway had such good seed. Makes sense though, if the intention was to create a Fiesta 4 competitor. Someone should contact Allied and tell them about the stolons in this grass.
I'm starting to wonder now if this stolon feature has a lot to do with how the grass filled in during its first spring. It was pretty barren looking until April. It was planted late in the Fall last year (end of Sept). But then by May it was this lush looking grass that had filled in well (but there was some KBG planted into the mix also).
But I'll tell you what...the other PR, planted by a landscape contractor (using a contractor's mix) on the other side of the driveway about 4 years ago, might not have this spreading ability...it thinned out dramatically right after being planted, as it was planted in the Spring and got fungus. It did increase in density at one point, but I think the clumps just spread more than anything. You could see distinct clumps. This makes sense as it was likely older PR cultivars that spread less readily. I recently overseeded that area with TTTF, and it looks amazing now...very dark green color, and the PR and TF look similar, other than blade width and midrib, which isn't important to anyone looking at the lawn from the sidewalk.
Finally, as I mentioned before, this "stoloniferous" PR looks a bit more like TTTF than the older PR I have. The blades are wider, darker green with a blue tint, more upright, more prominent veins, etc. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't an inconsequential piece to the puzzle.
- sc4dr
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
What you are describing is exactly what I saw. And yes it was stolons.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Most of you probably already have, but those who haven't...check out this article:
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/20 ... ssmix.html
Notice how when PR and KBG are mixed, the PR percentage tends to increase over time, while the KBG percentage tends to decrease. I've observed similar effects in a mixed lawn. Now, here's the scientific question: how does PR increase in percentage over time if it can't really spread? Perhaps the spreading of PR via mechanisms similar to the topic of this thread could be involved. I'd like to see more studies to elucidate a mechanism(s) for the increase in percentage of rye over time.
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/20 ... ssmix.html
Notice how when PR and KBG are mixed, the PR percentage tends to increase over time, while the KBG percentage tends to decrease. I've observed similar effects in a mixed lawn. Now, here's the scientific question: how does PR increase in percentage over time if it can't really spread? Perhaps the spreading of PR via mechanisms similar to the topic of this thread could be involved. I'd like to see more studies to elucidate a mechanism(s) for the increase in percentage of rye over time.
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
Read this one also, Green.
http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2004/040106.pdf
http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2004/040106.pdf
Simple - rye grass will seed within a lawn with rye grass allopathy.Green wrote: Now, here's the scientific question: how does PR increase in percentage over time if it can't really spread?
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Re: Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass--stolon-like underground sh
But seeds are rarely given the chance to mature.GaryCinChicago wrote:Read this one also, Green.
http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2004/040106.pdf
Simple - rye grass will seed within a lawn with rye grass allopathy.Green wrote: Now, here's the scientific question: how does PR increase in percentage over time if it can't really spread?
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