How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
Green
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How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Green » October 30th, 2012, 8:08 pm

So I overseeded the front 2 months ago. About a month ago, I started noticing a couple of relatively large (a foot or two in diameter) patches of a light green bluegrass-species appearing. At first I thought maybe it was something like "Triv". But then I realized that I had had an issue with the spreader calibration when I first started to seed, and my KBG seed mix (which included "America", which is a lighter color than many grasses) got dumped out too heavily on some spots.

So now I need to figure out if it's the America KBG or Poa Trivialis...or something else. It's definitely some type of bluegrass, but it's definitely not a Poa annua type. So, at least we have that ruled out. It's most certainly going to end up being one of these three: KGB, Trivialis, or Compressa (the latter which I've never seen that light in color--compressa is usually very dark green-blue--the only reason I still include it as a possibility is because a.) I did have Compressa in the lawn before, and b.) the stems on this light grass seem flattened like on Compressa).

I was thinking maybe since I accidently dropped the KBG too heavily in a few spots, it's just young KBG that's still a lighter green.

But the bad thing is, this grass grows fast...faster than everything around/intermixed with it (which includes KBG, TTTF, FF, TTPR). That's why I thought "Triv". There also appear to be a few smaller spots of similar colored grass...and I did throw down more KBG seed by hand...

All KBG seed was either sod quality or very close to it. As was all TTTF seed.

The rest of the grass is a nice uniform dark green like this:

http://www.horizoncasual.com/uploads/im ... en_lrg.jpg

And the suspected Triv is more like this color:

http://cdn.dickblick.com/items/000/11/s ... een1-l.jpg

And if it really, truly ends up being Triv, I suppose I'll have to (next August) do something about it.

Now, how to go about this to determine if it is or isn't Triv?

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Masslawn » October 30th, 2012, 8:32 pm


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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by sc4dr » October 30th, 2012, 10:51 pm

Pics would help a ton. Also, reach down in between the grass blades with your fingers and pull. See if there are stolons present connecting the plants. Also pull a little up. If the plant comes up easily, and pulls up any others around it, then you're possibly dealing with triv, or cb. If its kbg, it won't pull out as easily, and it won't have stolons on top of the soil.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by GaryCinChicago » October 30th, 2012, 11:07 pm

Easiest way that I know of to start is to get down on your hands and knees and start scratching around.

Scratch the grass like scratching a dog, getting all the way down to the soil.

With turf grass, you will not encounter any knots or mats (like a dog) with your fingers.

If you do - then keeping your fingers in the same scratching position, now pull upwards. If you start pulling long spaghetti noodles up, we'll go from there.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Green » October 31st, 2012, 1:17 am

Ok. Now, before I try these "diagnostics" I want to warn you that most of the grass is new...both the desireable grass and the potential Triv. So, if it is Triv, and it is only a couple of months old, will I still be able to tell?

I have a feeling it's not KBG, and if not, I think I know what may have heppened now...

It just dawned on me that this mystery grass was actually probably there before the overseed renovation, just not much of it...I remember seeing something similar intermingled with the fine fescue. But it was just a plant here, a plant there, etc. It was like it was invading it...and it grew fast and flopped over. Being new to all this, I thought it was just KBG, as I had never had proper KBG before. When I verticut to overseed, it tore out a lot of the fine fescue. So, the Triv (if that's what it is) probably spread while I was waiting for my seed to germinate, and then spread some more during that second month. I couldn't tell there was a color difference until the new KBG/TTTF/TTPR darkened up, which took a few weeks.

I'm getting ahead of myself now...but if it turns out to be Triv, and I want to get rid of it, I'm planting my repair mix in pots next year, and will then resod (actually plug) the areas after killing/digging up the grass next year. I should be able to do that in Spring, unlike seeding directly, right? Then again, I don't know if I can grow enough grass in pots to take care of it all.


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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by GaryCinChicago » October 31st, 2012, 1:36 am

Green wrote:Ok. Now, before I try these "diagnostics" I want to warn you that most of the grass is new...both the desireable grass and the potential Triv. So, if it is Triv, and it is only a couple of months old, will I still be able to tell?
Yes.
You will be combing through the turf easily and then suddenly run into a clump, knot or mat.

Find a clump and pull it out.
Under further examination, it won't be what you are trying to grow.

TTTF and rye are bunch type grasses. Think tree, where there is a main stem that branches out. KBG is kind of the same, except rhizomes (underground) produce new stems. Regardless, you can comb through the turf with your fingers or a rake.

Clumps, knots or mats or NOT what we want to grow.

Other clues are -
it grows faster
it has a different color
it has a different look /texture to it
I have a feeling it's not KBG, and if not, I think I know what may have heppened now...

It just dawned on me that this mystery grass was actually probably there before the overseed renovation, just not much of it...I remember seeing something similar intermingled with the fine fescue. But it was just a plant here, a plant there, etc. It was like it was invading it...and it grew fast and flopped over. Being new to all this, I thought it was just KBG, as I had never had proper KBG before. When I verticut to overseed, it tore out a lot of the fine fescue. So, the Triv (if that's what it is) probably spread while I was waiting for my seed to germinate, and then spread some more during that second month. I couldn't tell there was a color difference until the new KBG/TTTF/TTPR darkened up, which took a few weeks.
Thought process! I love it!
See, we ALL have THINK and use our heads. +1 for Green!

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Green » October 31st, 2012, 3:56 pm

Well, I'm still not sure if it's Triv or Kentucky...One of these days, I'll pull out a little and really look at it. But if it is Triv, there's too much to deal with. Hopefully it will either darken up due to the iron in the Milorganite, or die out in the summer.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by andy10917 » October 31st, 2012, 10:05 pm

It will not darken - it doesn't have the genetics to do that. And it probably will "die out" in the Summer - and come raging back in late August. Don't spend time "wishing" it away - it will not go away on its own.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by sc4dr » October 31st, 2012, 10:22 pm

+1 Andy. Especially when fertilized. Triv loves our fertile BL soil. It won't go away.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Billybob » October 31st, 2012, 10:56 pm

Unfortunely I am an expert on triv. Like Gary said,it grows fast so it will be above the desirable grass. Light green,pulls up easy like the roots are growing on the surface. It spreads quick, hit it with round up to try and stop it from taking over.

From what I hear,it will take a few yrs. Some say tenacity helps but the label does not mention it will kill or control triv.,

If it is triv. I would say be aggressive and stay on top of it. It won't go away over night. Good luck.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by nclawnguy » October 31st, 2012, 11:02 pm

I have found that triv is suprisingly easy to pull out...I spent some time this fall pulling out triv in some spots. I put on rubber gloves and get my finger down into the soil and pull it up...works great after irrigation or a good rain. Again I have very sporadic spots nothing like some I have seen around here. I tried some spots with round up and the triv came back, so pulling up is the best option until something can be made for triv in a tttf lawn.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Billybob » October 31st, 2012, 11:06 pm

I agree about pulling it out. I hit it with round up first though.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Green » November 1st, 2012, 7:15 pm

If it turns out Tiv is really what it is, I'll probably try a version of what tiemco did successfully in another thread...

Once the new grass roots deeply by September or so of next year, I'll hit the affected areas with CCO (tiemco said Triclopyr helped weaken his Triv) and then rip it out with a dethatching rake a week or so later...and then overseed the areas.

tiemco used 2,4-D/Triclopyr. I'm not sure if Clover Killer (Triclopyr, MCPA, DICAMBA) will accomplish the same; does anyone know if it's the Triclopyr that produces the anti-Triv effect (without affecting young KBG, TTTF, PR, FF, etc)?
http://aroundtheyard.com/northern/tenac ... 80-20.html

Or, I might even try the Triclopyr-based CCO as early as next Spring, and just not rake at that point yet since the grass still won't be well rooted yet.

Does anyone know if CCO will hurt new grass less than one year old? Also, I've used the stuff before...it's not one of the more toxic/long-lasting/problematic selective herbicides, is it?

I'm also going to have per-emergent granules applied in the Spring--not sure which one the guy who does that uses--maybe Siduron--but I doubt it will do much against Triv, if that is what I end up IDing this grass as.

Tenacity is just too expensive.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by mattya » November 1st, 2012, 9:36 pm

Just curious - Why don't do your own pre-M?

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by sc4dr » November 1st, 2012, 9:55 pm

I agree with mattya. Grab a bag or two(depending on lawn size), of dimension from ace. You can probably get some on clearance this time of year. It won't help your triv problem much, but it will block a lot of other grassy weeds.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Green » November 2nd, 2012, 5:07 pm

This is what you see when you stand back:


Image


Up close, the blades look like KBG in shape, but are light yellow-green as in the pic, and stand above the other grass 4 days after mowing. Whatever it is, it's very lush right now.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by mattya » November 2nd, 2012, 5:18 pm

How many sq ft do you have? Is this all over? Tenacity is $52, but that bottle will last you a while, especially if it's just over a small area.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Green » November 2nd, 2012, 5:23 pm

mattya wrote:How many sq ft do you have? Is this all over? Tenacity is $52, but that bottle will last you a while, especially if it's just over a small area.
This part of the yard is at least 60x60 ft, probably larger. The affected area is approx 1/8 to 1/4 of that, but I see this light colored grass cropping up everywhere lately. Blade width is about the same as TTTF, maybe 1/8th to 1/6th of an inch. Back is shiny, all consistent with Triv. There are no readily apparent veins, though, and it has the boat-shaped tip and midrib.

I need to know more about Tenacity...where you can get it for $52 or less, how long that lasts, how toxic it is, how it's applied, etc. We also had a problem with Bentgrass taking over before overseeding...I bet it, too, will try to come back. I hear Tenacity kills it, too.

And then I'll have to ID this stuff for certain.

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Billybob » November 2nd, 2012, 5:35 pm

If you use tenacity,I would say try it sooner rather than later. Being in CT I would think top growth would be ending soon. It does look like triv,exactly what I have. Like others said,its a battle and takes time.

I tore out a big area,hit it with round up first,I manually removed the dead grass roots and all and sodded the area. It still may come back but if it does I think it will be a little easier to control. Pre-M every year.

Good luck

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Re: How to tell if it's "Triv" or not?

Post by Billybob » November 2nd, 2012, 5:40 pm


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