Warm grass options in transition zone
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
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Warm grass options in transition zone
Walking around my neighborhood I see yards with what has to be warm season grass. Mowed @2-3", very tight and dense compared to my tttf, almost like a carpet. Not putting green exactly.
Do any varieties do well in my area?
Which look best?
Will they not be green as long as my tttf? Mother in laws lawn zoysia lawn is yellow for a few weeks after mine greens up. Yuck.
Which ones do best from seed?
Will I need different herbicides, pre and post?
This would be for my backyard, which could be a test area of sorts.
Do any varieties do well in my area?
Which look best?
Will they not be green as long as my tttf? Mother in laws lawn zoysia lawn is yellow for a few weeks after mine greens up. Yuck.
Which ones do best from seed?
Will I need different herbicides, pre and post?
This would be for my backyard, which could be a test area of sorts.
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
I think you might want to post a few pix (closeup in lawn, and a couple of the plants on a white white of paper) for an ID, before asking about how to seed it.
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
good idea. going to look a little odd taking pictures of peoples lawns, but anything for the cause.
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
But I dont want to be limited to what the neighbors have. what are the more desirable warm season grasses? I'm in zone 7b.
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Are you really thinking that someone is going to write you a treatise on all warm-season grassses? You might want to narrow it down a bit...
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Not so much a treatise, but a white paper is fine. Just kidding. So there's no favorites?
- Begotten
- Posts: 881
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
If you just want a shorter grass, you could try creeping bentgrass which is still cool season that you can seed but it grows similarly to grasses like Bermuda.
I'm pretty burnt out on keeping up my lawn this year. Most of our grasses are very aggressive and need a lot of upkeep, if I were you I'd stick with what I have and not open this can of worms.
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
- Grass Type: Front Yard: 2013 TTTF reno (faith, cochise, turbo, ls1200), Back: 2013 KBG reno (bewitched, midnight, prosperity)
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Never had a warm season grass, what kind of upkeep are you talking about? Thx and thanks for the bentgrass tip.
-
- Posts: 69
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- Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
The best test to see if you are willing to go with bermudagrass is to tape a photo of dormant bermudagrass on your window from November until March and look at it everyday. Very few northerners are willing to accept five months of looking at a beige lawn.
If you can do it, then check out this link.
http://turf.okstate.edu/news/two-new-tu ... s-released
If you can do it, then check out this link.
http://turf.okstate.edu/news/two-new-tu ... s-released
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
- Grass Type: Front Yard: 2013 TTTF reno (faith, cochise, turbo, ls1200), Back: 2013 KBG reno (bewitched, midnight, prosperity)
- Lawn Size: Not Specified
- Level: Not Specified
Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Ha! Tell me about, thats what irks me about my mother in laws zoysia lawn. However my backyard is a little out of sight, not like the front yard. If anyone knows are there fescues that tend to be more compact in spacing and height.
-
- Posts: 6837
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
If you mow TTTF at 2-3 inches, it will be pretty dense-looking and compact like you say because of the short height.
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- Posts: 17
- Joined: April 2nd, 2017, 8:57 am
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
I'm having Latitude 36 Sod installed next year - I live just west of NoVA out near Interstate 81.
The problem is my front facing windows are projecting a reflection on parts of my KGB yard, which is heating up the soil to 105F every day for 7 weeks, which is killing my midnight Monostand. After the sun moves across the sky, the projection area moves with it, so I have a nice 'L' shape kill zone in my yard. Volumetric heat capacity of soil depends on numerous things, like moisture, composition (clay vs sand, etc) and others; My topsoil consists mostly of clay and other sedimentary rocks in trace amounts. With thermal diffusivity, Fourier's law, the calculations I have come up with show that when the sun moves into a new zone, where a zone is another 2.5sqft area, the previous zone still radiates heat that declines about 1.8C every 21 minutes (+/-.3). Using Stefan–Boltzmann black body radiation model, I calculate that the soil temperature in the 'dead zone' will go back to a temperature equilibrium of 73F, totally, in 5 hours between May and June, 5.5 Hours Between July and August, and 3.9 hours between August and September.
Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass cannot withstand this onslaught of heat.
There's a SOD farm down in Remington, VA sells Latitude 36 and Northbridge Bermudagrass, which are very cold tolerant grasses and they are hybrids. Latitude 36, according to NTEP, has better fall (dormant) color than Northbridge, and it wakes up in April.
Here's what you need to know:
- Compared to KBG, Latitude 36 appears require less water on paper. Since my water company started adding fees for a project with the Potomac River, my water bill has gotten expensive with summer watering.
- Summer months are the growing seasons for Bermudagrasses. You will definitely have to mow 1 time to 2 times a week with a decent reel mower at like 0.5 inches (so it looks nice)
- You can probably use a PGR to inhibit growth some, but it can become expensive. (Generic Primo costs nearly $200)
- The hybrids produce seeds, but they are sterile. So this will limit encroachment some if you want to contain it to your yard.
- Bermudagrass can either be your best friend, or your worst enemy. The major downside is the brown color (not as brown as Zoysias) but after the first frost in October, it will look dead like it your yard was exposed to 2 weeks of below freezing high temperatures. You *could* 'paint' the lawn to keep it looking green during dormancy, which will fade over time. Another downside is once you install Bermudagrass, and want to go back to a cool season grass, it will be very difficult, to remove it. We're talking multiple applications of roundup, sod cutting, etc.
Has some pictures: http://janddturf.blogspot.com/2015/07/
This has pictures of Northbridge, Patriot, and Latitude 36 in Maryland : https://soccerplexgem.wordpress.com/2014/01/
This show the 'features' of it, and growing map. (Be wary, it's a marketing tool) https://sodsolutions.com/grasses/latitu ... mudagrass/
Here's a link of what it looks like during the warm months, and what it looks like when it goes dormant after the first frost: http://laverysodfarm.com/Fall_Color_Retention.html
The problem is my front facing windows are projecting a reflection on parts of my KGB yard, which is heating up the soil to 105F every day for 7 weeks, which is killing my midnight Monostand. After the sun moves across the sky, the projection area moves with it, so I have a nice 'L' shape kill zone in my yard. Volumetric heat capacity of soil depends on numerous things, like moisture, composition (clay vs sand, etc) and others; My topsoil consists mostly of clay and other sedimentary rocks in trace amounts. With thermal diffusivity, Fourier's law, the calculations I have come up with show that when the sun moves into a new zone, where a zone is another 2.5sqft area, the previous zone still radiates heat that declines about 1.8C every 21 minutes (+/-.3). Using Stefan–Boltzmann black body radiation model, I calculate that the soil temperature in the 'dead zone' will go back to a temperature equilibrium of 73F, totally, in 5 hours between May and June, 5.5 Hours Between July and August, and 3.9 hours between August and September.
Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass cannot withstand this onslaught of heat.
There's a SOD farm down in Remington, VA sells Latitude 36 and Northbridge Bermudagrass, which are very cold tolerant grasses and they are hybrids. Latitude 36, according to NTEP, has better fall (dormant) color than Northbridge, and it wakes up in April.
Here's what you need to know:
- Compared to KBG, Latitude 36 appears require less water on paper. Since my water company started adding fees for a project with the Potomac River, my water bill has gotten expensive with summer watering.
- Summer months are the growing seasons for Bermudagrasses. You will definitely have to mow 1 time to 2 times a week with a decent reel mower at like 0.5 inches (so it looks nice)
- You can probably use a PGR to inhibit growth some, but it can become expensive. (Generic Primo costs nearly $200)
- The hybrids produce seeds, but they are sterile. So this will limit encroachment some if you want to contain it to your yard.
- Bermudagrass can either be your best friend, or your worst enemy. The major downside is the brown color (not as brown as Zoysias) but after the first frost in October, it will look dead like it your yard was exposed to 2 weeks of below freezing high temperatures. You *could* 'paint' the lawn to keep it looking green during dormancy, which will fade over time. Another downside is once you install Bermudagrass, and want to go back to a cool season grass, it will be very difficult, to remove it. We're talking multiple applications of roundup, sod cutting, etc.
Has some pictures: http://janddturf.blogspot.com/2015/07/
This has pictures of Northbridge, Patriot, and Latitude 36 in Maryland : https://soccerplexgem.wordpress.com/2014/01/
This show the 'features' of it, and growing map. (Be wary, it's a marketing tool) https://sodsolutions.com/grasses/latitu ... mudagrass/
Here's a link of what it looks like during the warm months, and what it looks like when it goes dormant after the first frost: http://laverysodfarm.com/Fall_Color_Retention.html
- Begotten
- Posts: 881
- Joined: May 15th, 2013, 3:04 pm
- Location: Savannah, GA
- Grass Type: Celebration Bermuda, St. Augustine
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
I guess it''s mainly the mowing. If you don't stay on top of it and don't keep it mowed at least once a week you're in for an ugly lawn for a while. In many cases you'll be mowing 2 or 3 times a week to keep it short during the growing season.
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
- Grass Type: Front Yard: 2013 TTTF reno (faith, cochise, turbo, ls1200), Back: 2013 KBG reno (bewitched, midnight, prosperity)
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Holy smokes, lot of good info in your post, thank you. With the full sun you have sounds like your a good candidate for bermuda. From what I've heard your going to need a reel mower.Monkburger wrote: ↑August 7th, 2017, 2:22 amI'm having Latitude 36 Sod installed next year - I live just west of NoVA out near Interstate 81.
...............
I'm probably going to overseed some tttf into the backyard kbg. I think the fescue will help in the areas my kbg is struggling; heat/direct sun and some shady areas. So two extremes there.
I did order some bermuda seed to do a little test area, which will need to be isolated so the bermuda doesn't take over.
Mowed last night, dropped my deck height a notch to 3" and the lawn looks so much better. The lawn is still recovering from the mid 90's we had in July. Getting better though.
- Abyss
- Posts: 750
- Joined: April 1st, 2009, 3:31 am
- Location: Just outside Philly
- Grass Type: Midnight II and Northstar out back
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
All the sports fields are switching to patriot Bermuda in the VA/MD area. Better cold tolerance/earlier green up, and can be cut lower
I recommend spraying with a pgr after established. I barely mow once a week, and it has thickened up dramatically
I recommend spraying with a pgr after established. I barely mow once a week, and it has thickened up dramatically
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
- Grass Type: Front Yard: 2013 TTTF reno (faith, cochise, turbo, ls1200), Back: 2013 KBG reno (bewitched, midnight, prosperity)
- Lawn Size: Not Specified
- Level: Not Specified
Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Any you can think of in the fairfax/burke/springfield area or around there? Would be interested in seeing them. I thought the fields were going to artificial turf.
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- Posts: 17
- Joined: April 2nd, 2017, 8:57 am
- Location: Winchester, VA (Zone 6B)
- Grass Type: Midnight KBG (Front) / Award KBG (Sides)
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
You could call around to some golf courses in your area and ask them what kind of grasses they are using for their greens etc. But, that is not a good indicator of homeowner based bermudagrass since golf courses do daily maintenance (mowing, etc).
Trust me, I was in the same boat with Bermuda, I wanted pictures of it to see if it was marketing fluff or just not something I really wanted; but after seeing sod farms with Latitude 36, and that low carpet like look and high density, I was very jealous of it.
Honestly, my midnight, during the cooler months, needs to be mowed 2x a week for optimal look. May 30th is when I apply a PGR to it; Plant Growth Regulators like Primo Maxx interferes with gibberellin biosynthesis and reduces laminar cell elongation, thereby decreasing the need for frequent mowing (Adams et al., 1992). PGR's like PM induces production of reduced (short) thicker cells (Ervin and Koski, 2001b), increased specific leaf weight (Gaussoin et al., 1997; Heckman et al., 2001), increased tillering (Beasely et al., 2005; Ervin and Koski, 1998; Fagerness and Yelverton, 2000; Goss et al., 2002), and changes in total root length and surface area (Beasely et al., 2005). Primo Maxx (TE) also appears to reduce water usage of turfgrasses by 25%, in vitro (Syngenta Professional Products, 2008)
This appears to have a more pronounced effect on bermudagrasses since the canopy height is not nearly as vertical as cool season grasses, and it's horizontal shoots increased with redirection of cellular energy (more tillering), which means a PGR on a warm season grass is like rocket fuel for turf density.
Trust me, I was in the same boat with Bermuda, I wanted pictures of it to see if it was marketing fluff or just not something I really wanted; but after seeing sod farms with Latitude 36, and that low carpet like look and high density, I was very jealous of it.
Honestly, my midnight, during the cooler months, needs to be mowed 2x a week for optimal look. May 30th is when I apply a PGR to it; Plant Growth Regulators like Primo Maxx interferes with gibberellin biosynthesis and reduces laminar cell elongation, thereby decreasing the need for frequent mowing (Adams et al., 1992). PGR's like PM induces production of reduced (short) thicker cells (Ervin and Koski, 2001b), increased specific leaf weight (Gaussoin et al., 1997; Heckman et al., 2001), increased tillering (Beasely et al., 2005; Ervin and Koski, 1998; Fagerness and Yelverton, 2000; Goss et al., 2002), and changes in total root length and surface area (Beasely et al., 2005). Primo Maxx (TE) also appears to reduce water usage of turfgrasses by 25%, in vitro (Syngenta Professional Products, 2008)
This appears to have a more pronounced effect on bermudagrasses since the canopy height is not nearly as vertical as cool season grasses, and it's horizontal shoots increased with redirection of cellular energy (more tillering), which means a PGR on a warm season grass is like rocket fuel for turf density.
-
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
I'm in the same boat (and geographic) area as kevreh, and have been considering Yukon, which is a top rated seeded bermuda. Supposed to be as dark as all but the best sod types, and is very cold tolerant. How long it will stay green is the question. Will a light frost be enough to turn it brown? If not, I could probably be green through mid December a lot of times. So, will a light frost turn it brown?
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- Posts: 281
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Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Maybe I missed it. Where in the transition zone are you. Look at TifTuf Bermudagrass it's the new standard replacing Tifway 419. I have contacts if you have trouble finding it.
- kevreh
- Posts: 914
- Joined: March 12th, 2012, 11:24 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
- Grass Type: Front Yard: 2013 TTTF reno (faith, cochise, turbo, ls1200), Back: 2013 KBG reno (bewitched, midnight, prosperity)
- Lawn Size: Not Specified
- Level: Not Specified
Re: Warm grass options in transition zone
Maynard the Keynisian is in DC and I'm close to Fairfax, Va.
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