Interesting Read

This is the place to discuss Organic lawncare.
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Masslawn
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Interesting Read

Post by Masslawn » September 21st, 2012, 6:46 pm


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andy10917
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Re: Interesting Read

Post by andy10917 » September 21st, 2012, 9:07 pm

That should be required reading for anyone that tries to grow a plant or lawn. I put it in my permanent collection and plan to quote it regularly.

An article from the US Government that didn't ruin the paper it's printed on -- go figure!!

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by Masslawn » September 22nd, 2012, 12:35 am

Imagine that the US Goverment may be on to something. :shock:

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by GaryCinChicago » September 22nd, 2012, 12:49 am

I got as far as
Simply stated, tillage is bad for the soil, such as tillage with a plow, disk, or chisel plow.
and was able to realize it was a tree hugger hippie article.

So incorporating organic material and adding oxygen to the soil profile is bad.

I gotcha, thanks.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by Masslawn » September 22nd, 2012, 1:12 am

GaryCinChicago wrote:I got as far as
Simply stated, tillage is bad for the soil, such as tillage with a plow, disk, or chisel plow.
and was able to realize it was a tree hugger hippie article.

So incorporating organic material and adding oxygen to the soil profile is bad.

I gotcha, thanks.
You are otta your mind but funny as sh@t!! Ya somewhat is there but.....


tree hugger hippie article http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UEM541IenE


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Re: Interesting Read

Post by Drinyth » September 22nd, 2012, 7:27 am

I'm still not sure why you keep posting that hippo video...

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by MorpheusPA » September 22nd, 2012, 9:02 am

Drinyth wrote:I'm still not sure why you keep posting that hippo video...
I like hippos, but don't annoy them or get in the way of their food source.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by bernstem » September 22nd, 2012, 9:04 am

Most commercial farmers, agronomists and extension offices I know practice or preach no-till agriculture and crop rotation whenever possible. The benefits to the crop are measurable and significant. No-tilling reduces needed chemical fertilizer inputs, increases soil moisture levels and results in higher crop yield.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by andy10917 » September 22nd, 2012, 11:15 am

and was able to realize it was a tree hugger hippie article.

So incorporating organic material and adding oxygen to the soil profile is bad.

I gotcha, thanks.
It's no surprise that the articles that you post as evidence for the support of the "synthetic NPK, sterilize everything that you don't care for" come from the 1960's. That was the age of DuPont can fix everything with "science". An industrial "it just takes some NPK" simple approach. And run anyone out of town that questions the philosophy.

Only the approach didn't work. Crop yields on existing varieties fell, and mineral content of the produced crops became abysmal. Some scientists started looking for why, and forty years of research since then has indicated that the mechanical introduction of organic material and even Oxygen to where it doesn't happen naturally is bad and damages a very, very complex soil biology. The soil biology at 1" is different than the soil biology at 6", and the biology at 6" isn't adapted for high Oxygen levels.

So, the simple industrial approach was an attempt at a simple solution to a complex problem. It didn't work.

You can take the "tree hugging hippie" dismissive attitude to newer research if you wish, but it sort of sounds like the "run them out of town for refusing to fall in line" to me. I'm going to try to accommodate the latest research into my regimens instead of dismissing it.

It's interesting that the guys that got run out of town in the 1960's for questioning the prevailing philosophy were right. They may not have know WHY they were right, but the later research proved their questioning was valid. What a bunch of hippies Albrecht, Reams, Beard and Rodale were...

Image

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by Masslawn » September 22nd, 2012, 3:02 pm

Drinyth wrote:I'm still not sure why you keep posting that hippo video...

Did I ruin breakfast?

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by GaryCinChicago » September 22nd, 2012, 3:20 pm

bernstem wrote:Most commercial farmers, agronomists and extension offices I know practice or preach no-till agriculture and crop rotation whenever possible. The benefits to the crop are measurable and significant. No-tilling reduces needed chemical fertilizer inputs, increases soil moisture levels and results in higher crop yield.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070710.htm :confused:

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by GeorgiaCLayFarmer » September 22nd, 2012, 3:38 pm

Andy,Morph you both should fire up netflix or hulu and watch the movie " Dirt" you both would enjoy it. Not anything you both don't know,but sure it would be entertaining.

[ Post made via Android ] Image

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by bernstem » September 22nd, 2012, 5:06 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:
bernstem wrote:Most commercial farmers, agronomists and extension offices I know practice or preach no-till agriculture and crop rotation whenever possible. The benefits to the crop are measurable and significant. No-tilling reduces needed chemical fertilizer inputs, increases soil moisture levels and results in higher crop yield.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070710.htm :confused:
I know of very few commercial corn and soybean farmers who farm exclusively organically. The volume of compost required without multiple rotation crops is astronomical. Even those who run a feedlot operation to provide manure don't usually generate enough to fertilze 1000+ Acres.

As near as I can tell, the farmers getting those yields are generally growing corn on a 4-5 year rotation with soybeans, wheat, alfalfa, spelt, clover and other crops. Aside from soybeans and maybe alfalfa, the profit per acre is typically lower for the rotation crops. I would have to run a spreadsheet with average yields and pricing for the various crops to see how economically viable such a rotation would be, even with higher corn yields, and whether a typical soybean/corn/soybean rotation would net more profit. The issue for most farmers isn't whether they can get record yields, but what the finances look like over the long term. In the case of commercial farming, there is no doubt in my mind that no-till with corn/soybean rotation is more profitable in most cases than tilling with corn/soybean rotation. Whether 100% organic farming makes sense is a different issue.

As a final point, there are different levels of tilling. Disking and Hoeing for weeds is very different than deep ripping to break up a hardpan layer, for example.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by bernstem » September 22nd, 2012, 5:35 pm

Some google-fu on my part pulls up a few interesting articles on the economics of Organic farming. This article seems the most relevant to midwest corn farmers: http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/orga ... ltar98.pdf It shows that while yields are lower by over 15% and costs are similar, the price premium for organic crops yields a net increase in profit. The farmer does need to go three years before he can sell his crop as organic, so that is a potential three year cash flow problem with both lower yeilds and lower prices that have a good chance of equaling three years of net losses until the crop is certified.

I do have issue with the small size of the study (17 acres total) as the non-organic surrounding farms provide something of an insect and disease buffer and some of the methods used (for instance they cultivated and disked the non-organic fields), but it is certainly promising.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by GaryCinChicago » September 22nd, 2012, 11:54 pm

bernstem wrote:As a final point, there are different levels of tilling. Disking and Hoeing for weeds is very different than deep ripping to break up a hardpan layer, for example.
Ah ha! There lies my ignorance!

Disking (merely turning over) is what I was referring to in my initial reply about incorporating organic matter and adding oxygen.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by xapabwa » September 24th, 2012, 10:38 am

GeorgiaCLayFarmer wrote:Andy,Morph you both should fire up netflix or hulu and watch the movie " Dirt" you both would enjoy it. Not anything you both don't know,but sure it would be entertaining.

[ Post made via Android ] Image
I love that movie! Made my son (just turned 8) watch it with me.

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Re: Interesting Read

Post by Masslawn » September 24th, 2012, 7:26 pm


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