Organics What's in the bag

This is the place to discuss Organic lawncare.
TNJDM
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Organics What's in the bag

Post by TNJDM » February 1st, 2013, 10:59 am

For some of us more lazy people, this is what I came up with after research. Take it for what it's worth and remember, I'm just the messenger:

-Happy Frog Premium Lawn Fertilizer 8-2-6. Bat Guano, Kelp Meal, Bone Meal,Feather Meal, Micronutrients.
-Dr. Earth Super Natural Lawn Fertilizer 9-3-5. Fish Meal, Fish Bone Meal, Feather Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Seaweed Extract,Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate Micorrhizae, "beneficial Soil Microbes".
-Jonathan Green Organic Lawn Fertilizer 8-3-1. Soybean, Feather, Bone, and Blood Meals, Amino Acids ahnd Humic Acid
-Jonathan Green Natural Beauty Organic Lawn Fertilizer 10-0-1 (2% iron). Feather, Soybean, Fish, and Blood Meals, Molasses, Wheat Shorts, Sulfate of Potash.
-Nature Safe 13-0-0. Hydrolized Feather Meal, Meat Meal, Blood Meal.
-Nature Safe 8-5-5. Meat, Bone, and Blood Meals, Simple Sugars, Humus.
-Nature Safe 8-3-5. Hydrolized Feather Meal, Meat Meal, Fuish Meal, Simple Sugars and Starches, Humus.
-Sustane 8-2-4. Coposted Turkey Litter, Hydrolized Feather Meal, Sulfate of Potash.
-Blue Seal Safe n' Simple 6-2-4. Soybean, Alfalfa, Fish Meals, "Organic materials".
-Lady Bug Organic All Purpose 8-2-4 (.25% Iron). Composted Turkey Litter, Hydrolized Feather Meal, Molasses, Sulfate of Potash.
-Scott's Natural Lawn Fertilizer 11-2-2. Hydrolized Feather Meal, Meat, Bone, Blood Meal, Sulfate of Potash.
-Down to Earth Pro Organics (1/8 pellets) 13-0-0. Feather, Meat, and Blood Meal.
-Espoma Organic Lawn 7-2-2. Hydrolized Feather Meal, Pasturerized Poultry Manure.
-Ringer Lawn Restore 10-0-6. Feather Meal, Bone Meal, Soybean Meal.
-Milorganite 5-2-0 (4% Iron).....Don't need me to tell you
-Chickety Do Do 5-3-2.5....Don't need me to tell you
-Texas Tee 6-2-4. Feather, Soybean, Alfalfa, corn and Kelp Meals, Wheat Midds,Molassess, Yeast, Compost.
-Natural Guard (Fertilome) 8-0-4. Soybean, Feather, Dehydrated Alafalfa Meals, Poultry Litter, Molasses, Seaweed Extract, Sulfate of Potash.
Last edited by TNJDM on February 14th, 2013, 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Michael Wise
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by Michael Wise » February 1st, 2013, 2:00 pm

Great legwork!

Let the individual add in their local price and amount needed, and you've got a great little comparison. :good:

TNJDM
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by TNJDM » February 1st, 2013, 4:02 pm

Thanks MW. I was thinking of putting some prices there, but what I found out (being in an isolated area devoid of any big cities), its not the price of the product that gets me, but the shipping if you order it on line. In some cases, that was the same amount as the product itself. At this point, doesn't seem to be a very large distribution chain on many of the ones I thought looked good (Dr. Earth,Jonathan Green, Happy Frog....)

I am going to go with Milorganite, Alfalfa, Corn, etc, but having Bermuda, I must say I'm intrigue with the 13-0-0. They do advertise it at the local coop, so I'm going to check that out.

Besides some spelling, I did notice I had "45" N for Chickety Do Do. I know 99% of the people will know that's an typo....Should be 5

Dave76
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by Dave76 » February 1st, 2013, 6:35 pm

lol, I'd buy Chickety Do Do based on the name alone. I've never heard of it.

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andy10917
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by andy10917 » February 1st, 2013, 10:36 pm

TNJ:

Please don't take this response wrong - I'm going to just get to my point and avoid the fluff.

You seem surprised by the contents, and your "I'm just the messenger" comment makes me think that you felt you were delivering bad news or expecting bad reactions. Is that true, and if so - what were you expecting?

I'll save the rest of my post until I see those items, as I don't want to affect your responses.


TNJDM
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by TNJDM » February 2nd, 2013, 5:27 am

Sorry Andy, I didn't mean to taint the post. Just didn't want anyone to think I was trying to sell something. Probably a stupid thought.

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andy10917
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by andy10917 » February 2nd, 2013, 10:11 am

Oh no!! Actually it's a great topic and discussion area, and I'd like to write a rather long pro/con post on this myself. But it seemed that you were being apologetic, and I was trying to figure out why.

Run with it...

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ez2luvlawn
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by ez2luvlawn » February 2nd, 2013, 10:43 am

I think this will be a very helpful thread for current and future reference. Great job in putting together the data and I know many members will appreciate this for information in it.
Great work and great idea! :good:

TNJDM
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by TNJDM » February 2nd, 2013, 8:42 pm

Thanks ez. I definitely looking for the pro/con's Andy. Especially since this will be my first year into organics.

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Frogamigo
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by Frogamigo » February 2nd, 2013, 9:54 pm

Might try Ringer this year in the summer...

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andy10917
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by andy10917 » February 3rd, 2013, 12:15 pm

Almost by definition, "organic" and natural sources of nutrients are less-dense in nutrients than synthetic sources -- nature does not create real-world items that are a very high percentage of a single nutrient. This is why things like Urea are synthetically manufactured, even though they are a natural molecule. There just isn't a ton of natural urea in anything that grows in the ground. About the highest natural form of Nitrogen in the natural world (that is commonly available for sale) is Soy Bean Meal. It is 47%-49% protein, and using the "rule of 7" means that it will yield about 7% Nitrogen when it breaks down through the microherd in the soil through the Nitrogen cycle.

A few "specialty" things (blood meal comes to mind) can yield higher percentages of Nitrogen, but they begin to have cautions about their use, and are expensive.

This often leads to frustration by people that are making the conversion from synthetics to organics. For the most part, things like soy bean meal are not available at the big-box stores and most garden centers, The "organic newbie" finds that they've driven past farm stores, mills and other sources for grains, etc. for years without noticing they even exist - they don't have giant neon signs or mail circulars to your home.

When many of these people try sourcing the products over the Internet, they find that the cost of shipping lower-density natural nutrients can approach or surpass the cost of the product itself.

And the "commercial organic products" are significantly more expensive than the products that they made from -- more frustration.

Once purchased, it takes some adjustment to figure how to integrate natural/organic products into a regimen. It often takes 2-3 years for a person to figure out that a straight conversion of organic products to the "NPK numbers on the bag" is not the solution - we all tend to revert to the familiar metrics, even if they are seriously flawed.

The end-result of trying to move to organic/natural nutrient sources is that we tend to get frustrated and start saying "they ought to do something". Realize this: if "they" do something to natural products to concentrate the nutrients, the Nitrogen (for example) will have to bypass the Nitrogen Cycle to avoid the "Rule of 7", and in the end the result will be a synthetic product and not a natural product that uses the Nitrogen Cycle in the soil. It isn't possible to have it both ways, and you have to make the decision for yourself about whether you want to deal with the lower density/lower availability/slower processing of natural/organic products.

PS: the above uses Nitrogen conversions as an example only, as this is a familiar thing for the traditional buyer of synthetic NPK fertilizers. It's written that way for simplicity and context only - and you will learn over time that this is only a small part of the value of a natural/organic regimen.

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GeorgiaDad
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by GeorgiaDad » February 3rd, 2013, 12:35 pm


John
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by John » February 3rd, 2013, 7:37 pm

I decided to go organic this past year which was a very easy decision. What wasn't so easy was knowing how to do it – not necessarily frustrating, but very confusing.

After a lot of research I decided to go with a blend of grains. I live in Dallas and get my fertilizer here: http://www.organicdynamics.com Click the link for Ron's blends to see the fertilizers.

If you're in the Dallas area it's an option.

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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by andy10917 » February 4th, 2013, 11:46 am

Here's another point (a dirty little secret) to consider -- both for organic fertilizers and even for the food we buy for ourselves:

Mineral and vitamin content has fallen sharply in the products we buy since the 1970's. In many grains/fruits/vegetables it has fallen by 60% or more. The commercial agriculture area has developed varieties that are larger, more disease resistant and that have a longer shelf-life, but the nutrient content has fallen badly. This is a side-effect of the varieties developed and the lack of mineral replacement in the soils being farmed.

Do not read the "nutrient value" information from the 1975 USDA charts and think that the grain/fruit/vegetable purchased really contains those nutrients today.

Grains today are almost totally devoid of the micronutrients, and the secondary macronutrients are falling too...

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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by John_in_SC » February 5th, 2013, 5:19 pm

Spot on with the decline in Nutrients in American produce and grain.... If you poke around, you will find that many other nations don't share the same nutritional decline... so there's something we are specifically doing wrong.....

"Modern" breeding has developed breeds that are:
Better at "ripening" in a box when picked green and stone hard...
Better at surviving long travel, multiple washings, rough handling, and cold storage....
Flavors that most folks won't object to (Notice I did not say Enjoyed or found Outstanding...)
Very pretty colors
Very big fruits/veggies...

Unfortunately, what they gave up is:
Disease and insect resistance (Most new varieties rely on tons of spray....)
Ability to keep without tons of preservatives
Flavor and brix levels - Many new varieties only taste Ok and their peak ripe brix is usually fairly low...
Cooking, fermenting, preserving, and drying qualities have been given up for fresh eating quality as well...

I think the lucky thing for us is that there's still plenty genetic material out there - so that as Pest and Disease control becomes more and more difficult - we can breed back towards disease and pest resistance... but it's amazing how many 100+ year old fruit varieties are still the gold standards for home growing...

Thanks

bggstv
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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by bggstv » March 18th, 2013, 5:00 pm

John wrote:I decided to go organic this past year which was a very easy decision. What wasn't so easy was knowing how to do it – not necessarily frustrating, but very confusing.

After a lot of research I decided to go with a blend of grains. I live in Dallas and get my fertilizer here: http://www.organicdynamics.com Click the link for Ron's blends to see the fertilizers.

If you're in the Dallas area it's an option.
Might have to check the shippingit might be too much :shock: i am in hampton Va

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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by Green » March 20th, 2013, 8:03 pm

I'm still hybrid synthetic/organic at this point. I'm thinking of using the Scotts organic product as an intro to go more organic this spring. The only organic things I used last year were Milorganite and mulching the clippings into the lawn.

But my question is, should these products be thought of as natural "fertilizers" (i.e. natural growth stimulants) or as soil ammendments? I don't want to jumpstart topgrowth in April, so I'm holding off my synthetic application until May. But I was thinking of starting out with the Scotts organic product in mid April, then using Milorganite the end of April, and finally, a little bit of synthetic fertilizer in mid to late May (since the lawn is still used to getting synthetics, I won't break away cold turkey, even for spring).

So: Scott's Natural Lawn Fertilizer 11-2-2. Hydrolized Feather Meal, Meat, Bone, Blood Meal, Sulfate of Potash:

Is this safe to use early in the spring, or is it going to promote fast and lush topgrowth like a synthetic fertilizer?

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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by HanLawn » March 20th, 2013, 9:47 pm

Sure,use it in early Spring if you want to-if you put it down at 9lb/K to yield 1 pound of nitrogen per 1,000 sq ft {basically bag rate} only .10lb will be fast release nitrogen,while the other .90 lb nitrogen is slow release and wont really start to become available to the grass until much later as the soil warms up and the microbes become more active to convert it.No fast or flush growth at that rate.

If you follow up with Milorganite in early May at bag rate,you will be adding another .28lb/K fast release N and a additional .43lb/K slow release nitrogen.....between these 2 apps,you really dont "need" to do a third app with synthetic,as the amount of slow release nitrogen already applied,plus the nitrogen from all your mulched grass clippings all spring/Summer should be trickling out for months to come.Hit it again in mid August for the start of Fall.

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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by Green » March 20th, 2013, 10:07 pm

HanLawn wrote:Sure,use it in early Spring if you want to-if you put it down at 9lb/K to yield 1 pound of nitrogen per 1,000 sq ft {basically bag rate} only .10lb will be fast release nitrogen,while the other .90 lb nitrogen is slow release and wont really start to become available to the grass until much later as the soil warms up and the microbes become more active to convert it.No fast or flush growth at that rate.

If you follow up with Milorganite in early May at bag rate,you will be adding another .28lb/K fast release N and a additional .43lb/K slow release nitrogen.....between these 2 apps,you really dont "need" to do a third app with synthetic,as the amount of slow release nitrogen already applied,plus the nitrogen from all your mulched grass clippings all spring/Summer should be trickling out for months to come.Hit it again in mid August for the start of Fall.
Thanks. Btw, I never use bag rate for Milorganite (or anything; especially synthetics)...it's expensive and I want a very slow trickle, not a fast trickle. I usually use 1/4 to 1/2 bag rate. Same for (especially) synthetics in spring...1/4 to 1/2 bag rate. Don't want top growth going crazy, killing drought tolerance and making me have to mow twice a week for months. Always at least splitting apps into two, especially for synthetics in spring.

But what I'm inclined to do this spring, is use even less synthetic than last year: first the Scotts organic mixture in mid April, then the first half of an app of Milorganite in early May, then a half or even 1/3 app (only) of synthetic around Memorial Day, and finally another half app of Milorganite sometime in the 2nd half of June. And then more of the organic Scotts in July (should be safe in summer; even safer than Milorganite since there is less fast release?). And I'll be mulching the whole time.

It's part of a very slow transition to up the organic content of the soil. Slow release synthetics will be used again in the Fall at full rate. And then a fast release fertilizer for winterizer.

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Re: Organics What's in the bag

Post by kevreh » April 14th, 2013, 7:37 pm

andy10917 wrote:.

This often leads to frustration by people that are making the conversion from synthetics to organics. For the most part, things like soy bean meal are not available at the big-box stores and most garden centers, The "organic newbie" finds that they've driven past farm stores, mills and other sources for grains, etc. for years without noticing they even exist - they don't have giant neon signs or mail circulars to your home.

.
Good point, the other frustration is from people who live in a large metro areas where there are no farm stores, lol. This put a damper on my organic plans. :sorry:

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