Grass Seed, Grubs, Dandelions, Oh My!

[cmcgill]

I've been posting a few questions here and there but I know I want to go as organically as possible so I thought I'd post them here (with a few new ones).

Background:

I have 20,000 sq ft. I'm guessing it's some sort of Northern Mix. We've been on the property for 1 year. The previous owners treated chemically with a local company. I don't irrigate (and probably won't regularly). I am going to do a soil test in the Spring. I've been using BLKH and Milorganite this season. I will mulch my leaves (and steal my neighbor's) this fall. My goal is a nice full lawn that we can play in. I don't mind a few weeds. The cost I'm willing to spend would be equal to or under what I could get it treated for "organically."

I put down TTTF grass seed 2 weeks ago and I'm finally starting to see some growth although I would have expected to see more. I'm being advised to have patience. lol.

I'm seeing way more dandelions than I would like. I'm being advised to not worry about it for now.

I'm starting to notice brown patches that are being eaten by grubs (confirmed). Currently there are around 8 or 9 patches around the property, maybe 2x2 or so for each. Not 10 grups per square foot though for the ones I've dug up though. Need advice on what to do for that. How worried should I be?

What kind of game plan should I be formulating for next year?

Thanks for all the insight!
curtis

[Tony alony]

cmgill, I'm not a cool season guy, but I do have to contend with grubs. First off, you have a large lawn, so expect some problems. Here's a link which may help keeping things in perspective.
http://redhenturf.com/blog/index.php/whitegrubs/.
I'm not entirely sure if the info is reliable, but I'm only trying to help.You can get better info from the University extension services in your state. Someone with better knowledge will be along shortly. Hope this helps.

[Tony alony]

cmgill, you've had a lot of views on your post, and no suggestions. The best I can do is to tell you that an organic solution to lawn pests and weeds would be (one or both of these), exotic or expensive. Here's a product that is labeled for grubs: https://www.bayeradvanced.com/~/media/B ... %20Lb.ashx

Here's a useful page for reference since you are in Indiana: https://turf.purdue.edu/homeowner.html
If you are certain you have grub damage, do you know which beetle is doing the damage?
Sometimes, a broad spectrum insecticide does as much harm as it does good. Here's a tip: The best prevention would be a season long grub killer like Scott's Grub EX used as a pre emergent in spring.
The same holds true for a herbicide for the weeds you may encounter. See the Weed Triangle method on the front page to perhaps find something you can use now, without having to buy expensive chemicals you may not even need next year. Hope this helps.

Edit: forgot to include this link: https://extension.entm.purdue.edu/publications/E-61.pdf

[HoosierLawnGnome]

Hey there, cmcgill!

Only you can decide how to define organic enough for your lawn. It's often a matter of degree, rather than an absolute.

For the grubs, I'd drop something like dylox to kill them now. They can be a problem. More than the brown patches are the raccoons they often attract to go dig them up. This causes more damage. Kill them short term with the chemical. Next spring, there's a pretty new, more-environmentally-friendly grub preventative ingredient in Scott's Grub Ex that is fantastic at preventing grubs. It is much more friendly to things like earth worms. It is great, but still obviously a chemical that is designed to kill things in your soil. I'm unaware of anything that will kill or prevent grubs that isn't a chemical. And do be aware of snake oil that makes overly-zealous claims.

For fungal prevention check out the proactive biofungicide program. Basically it combats fungus you don't want by introducing micro-organisms that out compete it. Serenade and companion come to mind. Get started on this kind of program next spring before you have fungus - once you have bad fungus you really need a fungicide to get rid of it. So the key there is prevention.

Getting weeds on 20K and doing it without chemicals is likewise a challenge, particularly if your turf is thin. Best thing to do there is keep your turf thick to prevent weeds. Which means good feeding and regular overseeds in the fall on a TTTF lawn. Milorganite is great - keep at that. YOur soil test may show some other things you need to apply to the soil next year. For weeds that have emerged, the most organic approach would normally be hand pulling them, but on 20K that's a lot. You may have to compromise. Do you only apply a pre-emergent once a year? (Minimize chemicals vs don't use them EVER) Is spot spraying good? If you get that turf thick enough you might be able to avoid blanket sprays.

One of my favorite organic type stores is Worm's Way north of Bloomington. Lots of stuff there you can apply as organic fertilizers. WArning - organic fertilizers are a lot more expensive and take a lot higher volume than synthetics.

P.S. I used guano on my last lawn (not exclusively of course).

Indy has a sporadic municipal compost program as long as you live in Marion County. Lots of places to get free sources of Organic Matter (organic fertilizer!)

[bernstem]

I'll stick to organic solutions for you since this is the organic forum and every response so far has suggested chemical controls.

In regards to slow seed germination, that is likely related to not watering. Grass seed does best when kept moist and not allowed to dry out. That generally means watering 1-3 times per day (or more if it is hot). Without irrigation, you will have slow germination at much lower rates than if you water. Of course, if you water you will also likely have higher weed pressure.

For grubs, you have two organic options. Nematodes and Milky Spore. Nematodes do not survive winter so need to be applied yearly. They should be applied in the evening and watered in. They will reduce Grub populations, but probably won't eradicate them completely. Truthfully, you don't need to eradicate grubs and a reduction in population is almost always good enough for the lawn to thrive. A program of Nematodes and milky spore, though, will keep them under control. You can use Nematodes right now to reduce the grub population.

For weeks, you can either hand pull or use an organic weed killer like horticultural vinegar. Vinegar will also kill grass. I don't know of any organic selective herbicides. your best bet is to hand pull when you mow. Once you get to a relatively weed free state, it isn't terrible to stay on top of weeds, though 20k square feet is large. Dandelions are annuals so will die over the winter.

As for next year, I would fertilize organically. Milorganite isn't OMRI certified, but it is a natural fertilizer and is a good choice unless you need the certification. You could also consider compost as a light fertilizer and great soil conditioner (apply at 1/4-1/2 yard per 1k square feet). I would apply Milky Spore and nematodes in the spring. I would try to stay on top of weeds with manual pulling. Weed control is likely going to be the hardest part of lawn care to keep organic as selective chemical and pre-emergent herbicides are much more convenient. Those three things (in addition to watering and mowing) will get you basic lawn care and address your current issues next year.

[cmcgill]

Thanks for the insights. I didn't know if there was something I might be missing. I'm starting to see more and more germination of the grass seed so I'm feeling a little better about that.

The spots from the grubs were concerning me too much so I went on and dropped some carbaryl yesterday. I'm guessing I'll just have to give those specific spots a little more seed, peat moss, and TLC in the next week or so. I just didn't catch the grubs this year. We had our other house treated (organically/naturally) so I'm learning on the fly.

Dandelions have decided to take up residence so I'll probably have to spray them in the spring.

QUESTION: Would effort be better spent thickening the yard in the spring (not ideal time) or taking care of the dandelions?

I didn't want to spray or put down any chemicals because we have kids and our garden spot is at the bottom of the slope in our yard. Our yard is not the typical Indiana clay. Without any lab test it seems very sandy. Older subdivision with the original soil (before they started scraping topsoil off). It drains and dries out really fast.

I'll definitely keep using Milorganite and BLKH. I've looked at alfalfa or soybean meal also. Other things just get so expensive for the size of my yard and my goals.

Thanks for all the insight and help!

[bernstem]

A spring pre-emergent application will make a huge impact on crabgrass, dandelions and other weeds if you are OK with a hybrid approach. That combined with healthier turf will go a long way towards making weed control manageable.

[ken-n-nancy]

I'll stick to organic solutions for you since this is the organic forum and every response so far has suggested chemical controls.

Bernstem has provided an excellent response -- lots of wisdom there!

I just learned a lot about Nematodes and Milky spore. Thanks!

Dandelions are annuals so will die over the winter.

However, I can't let the above slide. Dandelions are a perennial that seem like an annual because they die back every winter to ground level, but the tap root survives and will quickly grow in spring to produce new greenery, flowers, and a "dandelion globe" for your kids to blow the seeds from! Dandelions also seem like an annual because of the multitude of seeds they produce!

U. Nebraska - Dandelion Control

U. Cal - Dandelions

Personally, I've found that hand-pulling is the best way to "organic" weed control. Once one gets caught up, it actually isn't too bad. I pull weeds right before I mow, or even while mowing.

How long does it take you to mow? However long that is, spend that long pulling weeds right before mowing. Eventually, you'll get through the entire yard, and once you're moderately weed-free, hand-pulling is a great approach to staying that way.

[cmcgill]

I have also read that dandelions are perennial & prolific(!!!). It takes a little under and hour to mow and we have spent that much time and more pulling dandelions. It's a running joke in my family - I ask my girls if they will help me and they groan - they know it means pulling dandelion heads by the hundreds.

Should I look more at a spring pre-emergent or waiting and spraying with something like 2, 4-D later? If pre-emergent, which one?

I think I'm overwhelmed at all of the information (some of it differing), new learning, and things I'm trying to get control on.

And... impatience!

What is the single best thing I can do for my yard in the next few weeks? Temps are in the mid-70's now and will be in-between there and the low 50's for the next week with only chances of rain.

[laadams85]

Dandelions are easily dealt with using 2-4D. I wouldn't worry about using a Pre-M, if you maintain good turf practices and using 2-4D in the spring you shouldn't have much problem with dandelions. Just wait until things are growing, so after a couple of mows, then spot spray.

[gergev]

My lawn care is not organic, but I would like to get to that point.

I've been spot spraying my TTTF lawn here in central VA for weeds with 1/2 tsp Tenacity (mesotione liquid) to 1 gal of water. Until recently I would occasionally add in 2 tsp Triclopyr (60% butoxyethyl ester - Dow "Remedy"). Application has been once around the forsythia bloom and again later in the spring. One gallon is more than enough to treat my 5,000 sq ft lawn. I purchased an 8 fl oz container of Tenacity four years ago for about $60. It still is effective with 1/2 of the container left.

I have used Dylox and GrubEx in the past but grubs were still an annual problem. A few years ago a combo of grubs and hot summer decimated my lawn renovation. Last summer I applied three boxes of milky spore powder (St. Gabriel 10oz box, purchased at Lowes with discount coupons). So far, so good.

I've been top dressing my clay soil with compost, applying milorganite, soybean meal and the BLSC mixture from this website.
http://aroundtheyard.com/forums2/viewto ... &start=240

This spring I used less than a gallon mixture to spot spray for weeds and have pulling the rest as I mow.

Getting there.

[bernstem]

2-4-D is highly effective against Dandelions. Depending on how many you have, spot spraying works well and has less impact on the environment than blanket spraying.