Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

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mirak
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Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by mirak » May 25th, 2017, 4:02 pm

I have a lot of clay in my yard in Wichita. I used to have a problem with standing water during heavy rains in my backyard. Then I used a liquid soil conditioner called "Earth Right" manufactured in Kansas City and sold on Amazon. It is kind of pricey, but it seems to work! This year my backyard has drained much better, and I can tell the drainage has improved because I can compare directly to non-treated common area behind my backyard.

The common area is the same mowed turf as my backyard, same elevation, basically flat, but it develops lots of standing water during storms and my backyard does not. This is the second yard I've treated with Earth Right, and it eliminated the pooling both times. Not just temporarily either - haven't had issues in over a year since the single application!

So my objective is to continue breaking down the clay and improving my soil with a twofold approach: add microbes with the liquid soil conditioner, and feed them with semi-annual Milorganite treatments.

Sound like a good plan?

Anybody have any experience with this product? https://www.amazon.com/Southland-Organi ... onditioner

I've been studying the manufacturer Southland Organics and it appears to be same type of stuff as Earth Right - a microbial soil conditioner - but significantly less expensive.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by bpgreen » May 25th, 2017, 4:28 pm

I'm not familiar with either of those, but I'm curious if you've tried making the BL soil conditioner or the conditioner with kelp help? Those might produce similar results for a lot less money.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by mirak » May 25th, 2017, 7:58 pm

I didn't really understand your post. Can you explain more?

It looks like the Jumpstart stuff I posted is not an inoculant - it is a conditioner with humate acid. What does kelp help do? I'm already applying lots of good nutrients with Milorganite and I'm trying to give my microheard and added boost to break down the clay. If that makes sense (and maybe it doesn't because I'm a novice).

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by andy10917 » May 25th, 2017, 10:47 pm

What is it that the clay "breaks down" into? Since Clay is the smallest of the soil particles, that would be interesting.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by bpgreen » May 25th, 2017, 10:55 pm

I'm not the best to talk about BLSC (with or without kelp) because I've never made it or used it. Here's an article that describes how to make them:
http://aroundtheyard.com/index.php?opti ... Itemid=117

You cab also search for forum posts about them. There are quite a few threads about both of them


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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by MorpheusPA » May 26th, 2017, 11:11 am

Clay often does have problems draining in heavier rains, so I wouldn't expect miracles.

What you're looking for here is "flocculation," or the gathering-together of soil particles into larger peds that have air space between them, allowing more soil biology to flourish, roots to penetrate, and water to drain off.

For that, I'd get a soil test. Acidic, lower-calcium clays have a tendency to fall apart--deflocculate, which can be corrected by fixing the pH to where it should be.

But otherwise, there's no reason not to use Kelp Help to inject some penetrating organics cheap, nor with feeding organically to get some mass penetrating, nor with using soil conditioner (or, simply, 2-4 ounces of baby shampoo per thousand square feet per month) to loosen things up a bit while waiting for your soil test results.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by mirak » May 26th, 2017, 1:43 pm

So if I'm already using Milorganite a few times a year, what else should be doing to improve microbial activity and loosen up clay in my soil? Kelp Help? Something more like the Jumpstart I posted (humic acid)?

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by Charley » May 26th, 2017, 5:29 pm

Morph did a god job of telling you about flocculation. It takes time.

One part of the scheme is to get something down to the tight clay layer and through it. Shampoo will help with that. Supposedly humates will also. Look at the Anderson's products. And supposedly gypsum will also help. If you can get the roots growing deeper they will do some penetration work as will earthworms. Organic matter for fertilizer will encourage both of those. You still need a soil test to determine what the mineral needs are, other than nitrogen. When you water, try to get on the 1" during one event. If it puddles a bit, shut off for an hour or so. It will take water to move stuff deeper into the soil to attract microbes and roots.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by andy10917 » May 26th, 2017, 6:07 pm

Mythbuster #43: 2,525th time written

Gypsum only helps with SODIC (Sodium-based clays), which are primarily found in arid areas of the Southwest.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by Charley » May 26th, 2017, 9:00 pm

Further research should be informative for you.

Gypsum sill reduce sodium levels and magnesium levels. Both of those elements, in out of balance conditions, can increase compaction tendencies. It is chemistry.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by andy10917 » May 26th, 2017, 9:08 pm

The discussion was about your statement about Gypsum and clay, and nothing in your latest statement hasn't been stated over a thousand times before. Gypsum is excellent at displacing Sodium (hence the effect on sodic clays) and in getting Calcium to displace Magnesium, without a pH rise.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by Charley » May 26th, 2017, 9:43 pm

The discussion is about compacted clay. Sodium and magnesium elements increase clay compaction. If it has been stated and proved over a thousand times, why did you term it a myth?

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by andy10917 » May 26th, 2017, 10:03 pm

Because most clays are not Sodium-based. And therefore Gypsum has absolutely no value in their treatment. It is wasted money.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by Charley » May 27th, 2017, 3:49 am

Clays have many mineral components. Gypsum will reduce the components which raise compaction tendencies. I so not understand why you would have made 2,500+ posts describing it as a myth.

Gypsum is not a compaction cure. It is a relatively low cost addition to reducing the problem.
Adding organics and encouraging fugal soil microbes with deeper reach is the longer goal for the compaction cure. You should give attention to the results reported by member dchall.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by MorpheusPA » May 27th, 2017, 10:22 am

mirak wrote:
May 26th, 2017, 1:43 pm
So if I'm already using Milorganite a few times a year, what else should be doing to improve microbial activity and loosen up clay in my soil? Kelp Help? Something more like the Jumpstart I posted (humic acid)?
Kelp Help would...er, help. :-) I'd have no objection to using humic acid a few times a year, either. BL Soil Conditioner--or baby shampoo--will also help move things along a little.

Any organic matter added to that soil will also help. So mow in your fall leaves, toss garden leavings around, jettison used coffee grounds onto the lawn, and so on. Any source is great.

But definitely get the soil tested. If extremely high in magnesium and/or low in calcium, that would be a major issue that's in the way of a good soil. Low Ca is easily corrected. High Mg...well, we can work on it over time.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by mirak » May 28th, 2017, 12:17 pm

What does kelp help do? What does humic acid do? Do either of these add mirobes? Is that even necessary in a relatively healthy lawn or should I just focus on feeding with milorganite?

I have a healthy yard. I've been mulching my clippings for three years. The soil is just heavy in clay, which is typical for the area. I want that spongy humus kind of soil.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by nocsious » May 28th, 2017, 6:00 pm

I live in the KC area and commonly see the Earth Right soil conditioner sold around town at the local nurseries and smaller hardware stores. There is a clay problem around here. A local "lawn celebrity" also endorses the product. As they disclose very little on their website about the formulation, I've been reluctant to try it at the asking price of over $100 per gallon. Basically they say it contains organic polymers and also beneficial soil microbes. They don't tell you any significant details about what's in it, but make broad claims about what it does. Perhaps it is some sort of soil miracle in a bottle for $100, but I can't say and I am not willing to spend $100 plus on faith that they've found a miracle. Perhaps the contents are publicly available if it needs EPA approval or something, but perhaps it's like human supplements and largely unregulated. It's even difficult to determine who makes it. Doing a business entity search in Kansas for Earth Right comes up as a delinquent entity and the previous entity was appears dissolved. I doubt they do their own manufacturing based on a residential address as listed. I dug up some other related names, entities, and court cases. None of this really matters, but they still don't have my $100. :no:

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by Charley » May 28th, 2017, 9:58 pm

mirak wrote:
May 28th, 2017, 12:17 pm
What does kelp help do? What does humic acid do? Do either of these add mirobes? Is that even necessary in a relatively healthy lawn or should I just focus on feeding with milorganite?

I have a healthy yard. I've been mulching my clippings for three years. The soil is just heavy in clay, which is typical for the area. I want that spongy humus kind of soil.
There is not a fast or rapid treatment for compacted clay soil. All methods for remedy take time to be effective - think years.

Adding organic matter will encourage earthworms to carry it into the deeper zones. Regular shampoo applications will allow water penetration to carry nutrients to deeper zones. Do a search here for posts by dchall regarding slow deep watering to encourage fungal hyphae to penetrate to depth. It takes time for these natural processes to work. Your goal is to encourage the processes. One of those natural processes is to create lots of root growth which will die and leave organic matter in your soil. Same things happens to the microherd.

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by mirak » June 6th, 2017, 10:36 am

nocsious wrote:
May 28th, 2017, 6:00 pm
I live in the KC area and commonly see the Earth Right soil conditioner sold around town at the local nurseries and smaller hardware stores. There is a clay problem around here. A local "lawn celebrity" also endorses the product. As they disclose very little on their website about the formulation, I've been reluctant to try it at the asking price of over $100 per gallon. Basically they say it contains organic polymers and also beneficial soil microbes. They don't tell you any significant details about what's in it, but make broad claims about what it does. Perhaps it is some sort of soil miracle in a bottle for $100, but I can't say and I am not willing to spend $100 plus on faith that they've found a miracle. Perhaps the contents are publicly available if it needs EPA approval or something, but perhaps it's like human supplements and largely unregulated. It's even difficult to determine who makes it. Doing a business entity search in Kansas for Earth Right comes up as a delinquent entity and the previous entity was appears dissolved. I doubt they do their own manufacturing based on a residential address as listed. I dug up some other related names, entities, and court cases. None of this really matters, but they still don't have my $100. :no:
You are right to be skeptical. I don't know what's in it either. All I can say is that I have first hand experience on two heavy clay lawns that it works. And not just temporarily, but for the long term. It fixed my drainage problem in my last yard in KC - I used to have standing water after storms due to the prior owner stupidly building a landscaping berm that interfered with the natural slope. No more standing water after one application of EarthRight. I applied it a few more times that year to use up gallon and for the next several years had zero drainage issues until I moved.

Same issue with the new yard in Wichita, only this time I have directly adjacent common area behind my back yard to compare to. One application of EarthRight and I no longer have standing water in my yard, while there are big puddles in the common area. I'll post a picture next time we get a big storm. And this isn't some sort of wetting agent where the effects quickly wear off.

It just flat out works. But it is expensive, so that's why I was wondering if there are other chemicals that are similarly beneficial for loosening up the soil and promoting microbial activity.

I still haven't received an answer to my questions: What does humic acid do? What does kelp help do? Do either add or enhance microbial activity?

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Re: Milo + Microbial Soil Conditioner for Heavy Clay?

Post by MorpheusPA » June 6th, 2017, 12:52 pm

I've always been the tiniest bit dubious about wholesale use of humic acid...except that I do use it when rooting new plants, and it definitely does help there (established plants also visibly benefit somewhat).

Roughly, humic acid is a chelating machine. :-) It grabs onto positive ions and holds them, but not strongly enough that plants have difficulty pulling them away. Basically, it increases your CEC, aids a bit with water retention (water being a polar molecule), and looks to have some use as a weak rooting hormone. For that latter purpose, I also add fulvates, but I'm not at all shy with the indole-3-butyric acid, either. There are three rose cuttings and a dahlia scion in my office right now that were all treated with all three.

Kelp is heavy on potassium, the Great Ignored Element in most soils (Andy would say that was calcium and he has a point there as well). It's also an organic, strongly enhances microbial activity as they eat the stuff, functions as a moderately strong growth hormone, and helps supply trace elements.

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