What Did I Do Wrong?!

This is the place to discuss Organic lawncare.
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LeeG
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What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by LeeG » July 30th, 2018, 5:25 pm

This year, since I'm semi-retired, I spent a lot of time on my lawn. In April/May I raked away thatch, seeded heavily, put down top soil, weeded, applied Milorganite, watered and cut properly. I did everything the "books" say to do so you have a good environment to grow grass and fight weeds naturally.

By late May/early June the lawn looked absolutely beautiful! It was a "Scotts Lawn," barely a weed in sight, and beautiful, richly colored grass. I was thrilled. I was proud. My worked had paid off.

Not so fast :shock: In late June/early July we had a serious heat wave in New England, and before I knew it, every inch of lawn that received direct sun had spouted crabgrass. The crabgrass totally obliterated the grass I had so carefully nurtured. I knew this was a risk, but I thought the healthy grass would be able to repel the crabgrass. Nope.

What did I do wrong? What should I do next year (or this Fall) to combat this horrible stuff next year? Please help me!

Lee

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andy10917
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by andy10917 » July 30th, 2018, 6:00 pm

You didn't put down a pre-emergent for crabgrass when the Forsythia bloomed, did you?

You can also use pre-emergents around Labor Day to prevent Poa Annua from gracing your lawn next Spring.

PS: Spring is a terrible time to seed.

kentster
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by kentster » July 30th, 2018, 10:18 pm

Andy,

I always imagine you typing this with a slight smirk on your face. I know that I'm never going to forget my pre-emergent--ever. ;)

Kent

LeeG
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by LeeG » July 31st, 2018, 5:43 pm

andy10917 wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 6:00 pm
You didn't put down a pre-emergent for crabgrass when the Forsythia bloomed, did you?

You can also use pre-emergents around Labor Day to prevent Poa Annua from gracing your lawn next Spring.
But, but ..... these are not organic! :shock:

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andy10917
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by andy10917 » August 1st, 2018, 12:44 am

and your point is...?


bpgreen
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by bpgreen » August 1st, 2018, 2:41 am

andy10917 wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 12:44 am
and your point is...?
His point is that he posted the question in the organic lawn care forum and was expecting answers that used methods in keeping with organic lawn care. Most* pre emergents are not organic.

*Corn Gluten Meal shows some efficacy in preventing germination, but only when applied at really high rates.

LeeG
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by LeeG » August 1st, 2018, 8:21 am

bpgreen wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 2:41 am
andy10917 wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 12:44 am
and your point is...?
His point is that he posted the question in the organic lawn care forum and was expecting answers that used methods in keeping with organic lawn care. Most* pre emergents are not organic.
Correct, thank you

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by ken-n-nancy » August 1st, 2018, 3:21 pm

In striving to do organic lawn care, a pre-emergent to eliminate crabgrass is one of those places where I personally would make an exception to an exclusively organic strategy, at least for the near term.

Once the crabgrass "seed bank" has been eliminated from a lawn, it is quite manageable to handle crabgrass via a purely organic strategy -- by having a thick lawn to impede germination and/or growth of most crabgrass and by hand-pulling any stray crabgrass plants that end up having seeds blown in or carried in from elsewhere.

I've been at this point two years -- I no longer apply a pre-emergent on my lawn and deal with the few crabgrass plants that do germinate anyway (mostly right alongside the road where there is more winterkill and more seeds that blow in from neighbor's lawns) by hand-pulling them while I mow the lawn -- which is a fully organic strategy.

However, in order to get to this point, I made pre-emergent applications of prodiamine at forsythia bloom for two years -- these two years of pre-emergent got rid of most of the crabgrass "seed bank." I resorted to those two years of prodiamine applications because the prior year (five years ago now) I did not make any pre-emergent application and had significant crabgrass in my first-year lawn.

So, what I would suggest to anybody wanting to do organic management of crabgrass in the long-term:
* Relax your organic objective for at least 1 year (and possibly 2 years) to apply a pre-emergent (such as prodiamine) in the spring at forsythia bloom, in order to get rid of the bulk of the crabgrass "seed bank" in your soil
* Following those 2 years of using a pre-emergent, cease use of a pre-emergent and deal with any remaining crabgrass by hand-pulling.

I believe the above approach works in the long-term, and is actually likely to have a higher likelihood of success without "burning you out" by trying a purely organic approach in the first year and being unable to keep up with the crabgrass germination in an unprotected lawn - so that the next year, there has been no reduction in the crabgrass seedbank, and one never gets any closer to the long-term goal of not needing to use any preemergent at all.

However, if you relax the "all-organic" principle for the first year (or two) by applying a pre-emergent (which tend to be very low-impact environmentally, by the way) you can get far enough ahead of the matter so that you can cease the application in the future.

What you decide to do is up to you; the above is what I did, and I'm now at a point where I no longer apply a pre-emergent in the spring and the little bit of crabgrass that I get is manageable by hand-pulling. (That said, I am considering applying pre-emergent next year because the amount of maple tree seedlings I got this year without a pre-emergent was practically unbelievable!)

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andy10917
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by andy10917 » August 1st, 2018, 5:05 pm

Oops! Didn't see the specific forum but read the posting several times before thinking "huh?". My apologies...

LeeG
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by LeeG » August 2nd, 2018, 10:15 am

ken-n-nancy wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 3:21 pm
In striving to do organic lawn care, a pre-emergent to eliminate crabgrass is one of those places where I personally would make an exception to an exclusively organic strategy, at least for the near term.

Once the crabgrass "seed bank" has been eliminated from a lawn, it is quite manageable to handle crabgrass via a purely organic strategy -- by having a thick lawn to impede germination and/or growth of most crabgrass and by hand-pulling any stray crabgrass plants that end up having seeds blown in or carried in from elsewhere.

I've been at this point two years -- I no longer apply a pre-emergent on my lawn and deal with the few crabgrass plants that do germinate anyway (mostly right alongside the road where there is more winterkill and more seeds that blow in from neighbor's lawns) by hand-pulling them while I mow the lawn -- which is a fully organic strategy.

However, in order to get to this point, I made pre-emergent applications of prodiamine at forsythia bloom for two years -- these two years of pre-emergent got rid of most of the crabgrass "seed bank." I resorted to those two years of prodiamine applications because the prior year (five years ago now) I did not make any pre-emergent application and had significant crabgrass in my first-year lawn.

So, what I would suggest to anybody wanting to do organic management of crabgrass in the long-term:
* Relax your organic objective for at least 1 year (and possibly 2 years) to apply a pre-emergent (such as prodiamine) in the spring at forsythia bloom, in order to get rid of the bulk of the crabgrass "seed bank" in your soil
* Following those 2 years of using a pre-emergent, cease use of a pre-emergent and deal with any remaining crabgrass by hand-pulling.

I believe the above approach works in the long-term, and is actually likely to have a higher likelihood of success without "burning you out" by trying a purely organic approach in the first year and being unable to keep up with the crabgrass germination in an unprotected lawn - so that the next year, there has been no reduction in the crabgrass seedbank, and one never gets any closer to the long-term goal of not needing to use any preemergent at all.

However, if you relax the "all-organic" principle for the first year (or two) by applying a pre-emergent (which tend to be very low-impact environmentally, by the way) you can get far enough ahead of the matter so that you can cease the application in the future.

What you decide to do is up to you; the above is what I did, and I'm now at a point where I no longer apply a pre-emergent in the spring and the little bit of crabgrass that I get is manageable by hand-pulling. (That said, I am considering applying pre-emergent next year because the amount of maple tree seedlings I got this year without a pre-emergent was practically unbelievable!)
Thank you, I am open to this. It would be nice if, at the same time, I could discourage the growth of dandelions and broadleaf weeds. In other words, if I'm going to do this, I might as well go all the way. Could you advise me on this, as well as where to get info on when to apply these pre-emergents? Thanks, Lee

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Dchall_San_Antonio
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by Dchall_San_Antonio » August 10th, 2018, 9:23 am

What you did wrong was to seed in the spring. Simple as that. Spring is the time when crabgrass seed sprouts. Also the new grass does not have the root strength to make it through the summer heat and dry soil. Had you seeded in the early fall (about now for your area), then the grass could come up without the crabgrass weed pressure and have plenty of time to grow roots before the summer heat hits next year.

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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by kwarny » August 10th, 2018, 9:53 pm

What is your height of cut?

LeeG
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by LeeG » August 20th, 2018, 10:02 am

Dchall_San_Antonio wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:23 am
What you did wrong was to seed in the spring. Simple as that. Spring is the time when crabgrass seed sprouts. Also the new grass does not have the root strength to make it through the summer heat and dry soil. Had you seeded in the early fall (about now for your area), then the grass could come up without the crabgrass weed pressure and have plenty of time to grow roots before the summer heat hits next year.
You are right - the new grass did not make it through the summer. A waste of time/money on my part.

LeeG
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by LeeG » September 15th, 2018, 5:18 pm

I've been busy. It's mid-September. Is it too late to seed in Massachusetts?

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andy10917
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Re: What Did I Do Wrong?!

Post by andy10917 » September 15th, 2018, 6:09 pm

What type of grass were you thinking of seeding? It matters...

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