10-10-10 Organic Fert

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PSU4ME
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10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by PSU4ME » March 14th, 2021, 9:26 am

Hi,
Looking for a 10-10-10 organic fertilizer for use on my grapevines. Any recommendations on something I’d get local or an organic “recipe”?

Thanks and Happy Spring!

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by andy10917 » March 14th, 2021, 12:13 pm

I have a feeling that this is going to be more complex than you were expecting the answer to be...

When working with organics and natural nutrients, focusing on NPK is often not the best approach - it's sorta like counting oranges to know what to do about apples. The translations aren't direct and can make you chase the wrong targets and answers.

I'm assuming that the grapes are for eating or winemaking, and I'm also assuming that this is a reasonable number as vines (not acres of vines).

First of all, organics/naturals often don't have NPK numbers as high as the 10% each in the NPK. Organic/natural nutrients just aren't as nutrient-dense as chemically-processed stuff. That's actually OK - you can just apply them at higher rates. You plan to achieve a certain AMOUNT of the nutrient, not an NPK number.

Additionally, you don't need to put down all of the nutrients at once - you can apply them separate to achieve the amount you desire.

Be aware that most natural/organic nutrients are much slower to release their nutrients. There are exceptions, but they're pretty rare.

So, tell us what you're trying to achieve and we'll work with you to build a recipe!!

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » March 14th, 2021, 4:07 pm

That. And you're going to find that sourcing K as an organic is a nightmare.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by Dchall_San_Antonio » March 14th, 2021, 5:04 pm

You might start with a mix of organic fertilizer materials like soybean meal, alfalfa meal/pellets, and DuMOR 16% Poultry Crumbles from Tractor Supply. Mix them all up and apply at a rate of 1 cup around the base of each plant on a monthly basis. So if you have three plants to fertilize, put one cup each of those ingredients into a bucket, mix them up, and apply 1 cup of the mix around the base of each plant. If, after the first month you don't like what you see, then consider getting the $25 soil test from Logan Labs, posting the results to the Soils forum on this site, and see what chemistry your soil needs to spiff it up a notch. As morph mentioned, organic K might be a problem which requires a shot or two of chemical K just to get the soil dialed in. Then you can get back to using the blend of organic materials.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » March 14th, 2021, 5:29 pm

Not that chemical K is really a problem; it's OMRI certified because it's harmless to you and the plant (potassium chloride is edible as an alternate salt to sodium chloride for the low-salt crowd). Potassium sulfate isn't directly edible per se, but considered non-toxic (LD50<5000mg/kg).


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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by PSU4ME » March 14th, 2021, 8:19 pm

Thanks all. I’m not aiming for a specific 10-10–10 but looking for something organic to sufficiently feed the grapes (which I read is 10-10–10) The area is very much sandy and I’ve been trying to build that up over the years. I use a lot of baystate fertilizer in this area too.

I’m looking for a good way to fully fertilize.

Thanks

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by andy10917 » March 14th, 2021, 8:55 pm

All you need to is the ratio of 10-10-10 is 1:1:1 -- any fertilizer with that ratio can work, or you can apply N, P, and/or K separately to compensate for any initial nutrient shortages until the soil is right.

How strict do you wish to be about the word "organic"? For instance, Urea is 46-0-0 and exists in nature - but it is generally synthesized to the same molecule chemically. Does that bother you? Rock Phosphate is natural, and Triple Superphosphate (TSP) is Rock Phosphate treated with acid - is that OK or not?

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » March 14th, 2021, 11:29 pm

Plus although a grape may prefer 1-1-1, that doesn't mean it needs it all from the fertilizer. Your soil has supplies of P and K, so only N may need to be supplied.

My flower gardens are P and K hogs (P hogs particularly) but I apply almost no P. My soil tests there show my P levels at 1,000--sky high and almost at the "ridiculous" levels. K levels are fairly high and I apply only a little. I mostly pour on nitrogen. They grow and bloom like gangbusters because I'm hitting their needs between what I apply and what the soil has in it already.

The smartest place to start might be a soil test. While none of us are familiar with grapes, somebody somewhere must be.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » March 14th, 2021, 11:32 pm

OK, too late to edit. Too much P applied can also be a water pollutant, or why I don't add more to my soil. I'm also not a fan of adding more to the soil without a soil test to assure that it's actually needed.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by cjac9chris » March 15th, 2021, 9:23 am

It sounds like the main thing you're looking for is something that's balanced. With an organic you're not going to find percentages that high so you'll just need to use more pounds on the ground. Medina's Growin' Green is fairly close to balanced and then you'd just use a more to achieve the same amounts.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by PSU4ME » March 17th, 2021, 5:19 pm

Thank you. Because we “plan” to eat it I was wanting organic. The soil is very sandy and doesn’t hold much but I’m working on it (Morph we talked a lot about it). I plan to get a soil test in the mail next week.

It does seem like I’ll just need to load up the organics. Baystate, corn and alfalfa pellets is what I have access to

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » March 17th, 2021, 5:27 pm

For edibles, that's no problem either. And yes, I remember. :-)

Nitrogen sources would actually be almost anything except hot manures (and I'd avoid even composted ones because you just can't be sure). Most synthetics and organics are fine for edibles. Even Milorganite is perfectly fine if you don't mind the ick factor.
Phosphorus, same. Fortunately, organic sources abound here and tend to be OK in terms of P. Your soil test in the area should tell you what, if anything is needed. Synthetic OMRI-approved sources are easy to find.
Potassium is pretty richly available organically, but again, synthetic sources are safe and OMRI-approved.

Initial adjustment can be done synthetically as we can apply measured synthetic sources of P and K to soils to adjust them appropriately (and a little faster, although P takes a while to perk down). Post that, organic feeding (in an adjusted soil) is not going to be a problem and nitrogen-heavy sources are easy (soybean meal, notably).

Off the top of my head, do you have a local brewer who discards their brewing grains? If you can get to them on a brewing day, that stuff is about 4-1-2 (dry weight, you'll get it wet). And nearly flawless for application on any soil for any purpose.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by PSU4ME » March 17th, 2021, 5:33 pm

I have a local brewer (start line in Hopkinton) and I’m going to see how they discard stuff. Would love to grab it and toss it down!

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by Masbustelo » March 17th, 2021, 6:58 pm

Grapes are EXTREMELY sensitive to many common chemicals and I wouldn't reccomend commercial compost or that you make yourself if it has yard waste in it. When I had grapes, I kept them mulched with a good layer of wood chip mulch, renewed every year. The breakdown should give you enough nitrogen. Go by your soil test for other deficiencies, magnesium, phosphorus or potassium deficiencies will show up in the leaves at some point (maybe late August) and look very similar. If you are nitrogen deficient the leaves will yellow and do that early. If the leaves aren't yellowed they aren't nitrogen deficient. Be careful with any nitrogen to avoid rank growth and if you add any maybe do it in September.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by Dchall_San_Antonio » March 28th, 2021, 2:48 pm

Many years ago I remember seeing a picture of a peach grove in the Texas Hill Country where the owner put 15 inches of mulch between the rows. He claimed he never had to water the peaches. I wonder if that would work for grapes?

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by spanky_tn » April 21st, 2021, 3:32 pm

Dchall_San_Antonio wrote:
March 14th, 2021, 5:04 pm
DuMOR 16% Poultry Crumbles from Tractor Supply
I have wondered two things about this product and others like it (for example, TSC has a 30% protein product now):

1. Do you worry at all about the salt content? That gives me pause.

2. Any idea what the P and K content of poultry feed is like?

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » April 21st, 2021, 4:23 pm

The label list for DuMOR 16% Layer Crumble Poultry Feed is: "Wheat Middlings, Ground Corn, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Corn Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Salt, DL-Methionine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Yeast Extract, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Selenium Yeast, Thiamine Mononitrate, Zinc Proteinate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Hydroxychloride, Zinc Oxide, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Hydroxychloride, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Active Dry Yeast, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Chloride, Basic Copper Chloride, Folic Acid, Zinc Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Silico Aluminate, L-Lysine, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract, Organic Soybean Oil, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus coagulans Fermentation Product, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite"

1. So...it does have some salt. In a lot of areas, it's going to wash out pretty well, but I'd probably say that occasional soil testing just to be sure would be a good idea if this is something you feed the plant with a lot. I doubt it's going to be a problem in most areas, feeding most things. But it's possible.

If it does cause a problem, it can be taken care of long before it actually causes a problem.

2. From the looks, I'm saying around 1% P and 1% K. The K is probably a little high and I'm rounding up for that... But nitrogen is only around 2% or so, making it a pretty balanced fertilizer overall.

The unasked question is, "Would I use this?"

Probably not, but I also won't discourage use. Cracked corn at 1.65-0.65-0.40 is going to be cheaper than a processed meal, and about the same in terms of a feeding. Soy at 6-1-1 to 7-1-2 outcompetes it by miles in terms of nitrogen. Alfalfa's 2-1-1 also brings growth hormones to the table if you want those.

But if this is what's available, it's fine for use. Just make sure to check the sodium soil levels every few years.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by spanky_tn » April 21st, 2021, 4:31 pm

Thanks Morpheus. I have other options (though cracked corn is not one of them-- I have low reel-mowed bermuda). TSC is just much more convenient than the co-op for me, which is where I need to go to get things like soybean meal. I can also get alfalfa at TSC, so I'll probably use both.

The 30% protein product is really what has me asking, as its nitrogen content is higher than any organic outside of SBM. But then it also includes some animal product in its ingredients, so it probably has some fast release component that might turn others off.

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by MorpheusPA » April 21st, 2021, 7:40 pm

Cottonseed meal might be your other possibility in Bermuda country; it's comparable to soybean meal in the 45% protein range.

I wouldn't actually object to some animal protein, properly processed, in the mass. I'm neither vegetarian nor vegan, and don't have a problem with using it even on the lawn. However, it'd have to be handled appropriately so as not to attract other animals, or bring diseases onto the property that might harm you, your family, or your pets. When I catch mice or or whatnot, they're discarded right into the garden shrubs for decay or for a scavenger to find. They simply can't live in the house, so...

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Re: 10-10-10 Organic Fert

Post by spanky_tn » April 22nd, 2021, 9:09 am

Thanks again, Morpheus. I went ahead and picked up some of it to try out this Summer. I'll report back with any relevant observations.

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