Yet Another Organic Fert question

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bolson32
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Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » May 27th, 2021, 5:57 pm

Hey Guys,

I have a 1.5 acre property in MN of which roughly 60,000 sq ft is lawn. The property has been mostly neglected for 30ish years before I got here about 2 years ago. The property was a flip and they had hydroseeded around the house, but left the back half as-is. The parts that were hydroseeded have really good grass, and I've kept everything up with a mishmash of synthetic ferts and Trimec in the past. The soil on the other hand, is pretty clay like and I equate mowing it to what I would imagine mowing a rumble strip would be like. The reason organics is interesting to me, is not so much the sustainable nature of it, but hopefully it can eventually sustain my back. I know it's going to take quite a few years, but I'm less interested in the greatest lawn on the block(although I would like it to be somewhat nice), but I'm much more interested in having yard that has better organic matter and healthy SOFTER soil. I also have no interest in top dresssing with 60 yards of compost.

I'm in the process of getting a couple of soil tests to the Extension office but fleet farm has Alfalfa pellets and cracked corn on sale now. I was thinking of buying enough for 10#/ksqft of each. Doing one now, and one in the fall. I've also recently started mowing at 4"+ and I do really think that's going to help a ton as well. What do you guys think?

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » May 27th, 2021, 8:10 pm

Cracked corn is never an error, but is also not really a feeding (it's around 1.6-0.4-0.2 in terms of a fertilizer equivalent). Alfalfa is about 2-1-2 in terms of feeding, so also not much.

If you can source soybean meal, it's 6.5-1-1 or so, the heaviest-hitter in terms of protein (and therefore nitrogen), with about 15-20 pounds per thousand being a very good feeding. Ten pounds per thousand is a decent feeding and you can round it out with a synthetic if you want, or just let it go at that.

Any of the above will help your soil, but I will say that cracked corn is probably the best at that--it's the lowest nitrogen, but highest in fibers that don't decay easily. And you're right, there's no reason to use compost. It's heavy, hard to handle, does nothing to feed the lawn (effectively), and so on and so on.

Your lawn is ginormous, so twice a year is enough, if quite slow to work at that rate. Why rush?

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » May 27th, 2021, 8:41 pm

I just wanted to pounce while both were on sale. The cracked corn is $8.99 for 50lbs and the Alfalfa is like $12 for 40lbs. I called a few local feed stores and they were more expensive than that, they're also out of SBM. What rate do you apply that at as well?

And I really just wanted to get something down and working since it's a marathon.

Also Morpheus, I believe I've seen you used wood in the past? I was thinking of dropping some soft wood pellets as well. They're super cheap for heat grade here at $4-5 for 50lbs.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » May 27th, 2021, 10:30 pm

Heat grade is pretty sturdy stuff, it'll take forever to break down. Avoid if possible. Bedding pellets, like Equine Pine, are more appropriate for spreading; they fall apart to sawdust.

Untreated sawdust is often free from carpenters and is perfect. Make sure it's untreated, though. Local brewers will often offer up their spent grains free on brewing days. Otherwise, it may cost them to have them hauled away (if they don't, themselves, use their grains on their lawns and gardens). Collect and spread right from the pails. Effectively 4-1-2 dry weight, which you'll never get it dry. Divide the weight you get by about 8.

For "working" rates, 10# per K is just fine! Just don't count it as a feeding at all and feed regularly with any good lawn food. Ten per K of corn would amount to (math)...0.16 pounds of nitrogen per thousand square feet, or about one-sixth normal rate. Alfalfa, about one-fifth of a normal feeding.

That price on corn is pretty good; go for it. It's not stellar, but it's pretty good (but I say that with acres of corn field quite literally out my back door and two blocks away. Where I sit used to be corn field). Corn can be stored, but mind, you'll get mice. See my recent thread about that, my count is up to 10.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bpgreen » May 27th, 2021, 11:13 pm

Another option is used coffee grounds. Starbucks gives them away for free (as with breweries, thiis saves them money). Some places will have buckets of "grounds for the garden" packaged up nicely in the bags the coffee came in originally.

I used to ask if they had more behind the counter and told them they could give them to me as is and not repackage. I would spread them on the lawn until they ran it and just keep track of where I left off for next time (I do the same with my spent grain from home brewing).


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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » May 29th, 2021, 8:15 am

I thought about trying the grounds route but the Starbucks nearest me didn't seem to know what I was talking. I'm also all for cheap but I can't spend 10 hours making trips back and forth for a few lbs of coffee grounds.

I do think I'll look at the bedding pellets as well, they're almost as cheap as fuel and I'm sure they'd go through my spreader.

Morph, would it make sense to do Milo at half rate over trying to use corn or Alfalfa? It's $9.99 a bag here and if I did a half rate I wouldn't go broke.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » May 29th, 2021, 1:37 pm

Everything helps. Milo at half rate, corn at half rate, whatever you can manage. When fall comes, mow in all your fall leaves, ask neighbors if you can blow their leaves onto your lawn, or just tarp them in from the curb. Those are brown gold.

Discard (non-seeding) weeds from the gardens or landscape onto the lawn. It's not much, but everything adds up over time. I jettison my entire 2,000 square foot flower garden into the lawn every year at the end of the season (there, seeding doesn't matter, none of those can stand being mowed at 3").

Toss out your own coffee grounds onto the lawn, along with shredded old bread and so on. Sure, birds will get the bread. They'll also leave behind what they do after eating. That's organic material.

And so on.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bpgreen » May 30th, 2021, 12:08 am

bolson32 wrote:
May 29th, 2021, 8:15 am
I thought about trying the grounds route but the Starbucks nearest me didn't seem to know what I was talking. I'm also all for cheap but I can't spend 10 hours making trips back and forth for a few lbs of coffee grounds.

I do think I'll look at the bedding pellets as well, they're almost as cheap as fuel and I'm sure they'd go through my spreader.

Morph, would it make sense to do Milo at half rate over trying to use corn or Alfalfa? It's $9.99 a bag here and if I did a half rate I wouldn't go broke.
Starbucks grounds for garden seems to be hit or miss. It was pretty good for a while, but I think some people complained about the grounds if they sat around and a lot of outlets stopped doing it. I never made extra trips. I'd just stop at places on my way. I should probably start doing that again.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » May 31st, 2021, 12:02 pm

Yeah, I never bother because I never think of it. There aren't a lot of Starbucks around anyway (and we don't drink coffee so never have a reason to be anywhere near one anyhow).

With the pandemic, there was doubly no reason to go. As that winds down (hopefully), it's certainly not a bad idea to start poking around again.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » May 31st, 2021, 12:44 pm

You mentioned earlier that mice are a concern with corn, which is obvious. But is there a concern with Alfalfa, SBGM or Milo? I have a 16x32 detached garage and I'm thinking about just finding a feed mill that could just deliver everything once a year and I then I could spread it when I have time. It'd be a lot of room, but I have for the time being.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » May 31st, 2021, 1:55 pm

Most grains, yes. Milo, no--it's composted human feces. I just caught Mouse #11 in the garage, but I had an issue and I'm very close to corn field, so the population locally is extremely high to begin with.

During the spring, summer, and fall, mice are moving around and finding homes. However, they're also usually not desperate for food. So they won't descend on your garage en masse looking for dinner. Fall and late fall are the danger periods, from what I've noted. You'll get two. To start. But with a food source, warmth, and water from any dripping hose (and they all drip a little), you end up with 12 real fast.

To keep mice away from grains...your options are a bit limited. Wrap well, but mice can chew through most wrapping. I've actually found that they're least attracted to soy and that they're less attracted if it's stored on boxes that have bricks in them (so at least 2' high). But a desperate mouse will absolutely go for it.

Keep traps in the garage, loaded with peanut butter, and check them every so often in fall, winter, and spring. Try not to store much over the winter if possible. Blow out any loose grain immediately and don't allow it to sit. Don't keep things around that mice can build nests with or under--so no loose boxes, cardboard, paper, and so on. That will get rid of 95% of any potential problems. The reason I have problems is the local population, stuff I store, and...I'm bad at blowing out the garage.

Mice detest peppermint oil. That can be useful if you can do that, but it dissipates very fast. Although I have quarts of the stuff, I have yet to determine a way to deliver it.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » June 2nd, 2021, 7:41 pm

I'm not sure if this is off base with this forum or not. But just for kicks I got a quote from a local unnamed lawn service that provides 4 treatments of their organic fertilizer and spot weed treatment for $226 an application with a prepay discount this would ring in at $954 after tax for the 4 treatments annually for 60,000 sq ft. I did a quick comparison and that's cheaper than it would cost me to apply Milo at full rate myself. Is there any reason to not do this? They also provide a soil test, and callbacks for weed treatments. I feel like this is a good first step, and I can work on spreading more organic matter as time and money permits.

I asked if it was comparable to milo and this is the response I got.

"Milorganite is basically recycled nitrogen and phosphorous from sewage and/or waste water that is sold as fertilizer. Our fertilizer is basically nitrogen and potassium along with the organics that are derived mostly from fish emulsion , algae , seaweed extract , etc. "

Thoughts?

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » June 2nd, 2021, 9:05 pm

The soil test will cost you $20 and we'll read it free. We won't adjust your soil for free, but neither will they. :-)

""Milorganite is basically recycled nitrogen and phosphorous from sewage and/or waste water that is sold as fertilizer. Our fertilizer is basically nitrogen and potassium along with the organics that are derived mostly from fish emulsion , algae , seaweed extract , etc. ""

BZZZZZZ. Sorry, the buzzwords were so loud my head spun. They're trying to make Milo sound like something horrible. It's not. What they're saying could theoretically be interpreted as, "We mostly use really cheap synthetics but toss a tiny bit of organics in to overcharge you horrendously and call it an organic application."

Everything they listed is overpriced, not really appropriate for lawns in large amounts, or can be applied on the extreme cheap from formulae Andy and I concocted ages ago. See Kelp Help here for more information; Kelp is seaweed extract and I can source it by the pound for much cheaper than they'll sell it to you. And I'll give you that information for free because you asked. Kelp4Less. No, I have no affiliation. They're just good. Use the water-soluble powder, 4 oz per gallon. Spray the resultant gallon at 2 to 4 oz per gallon concentrate per thousand square feet diluted however you like on your lawn and gardens.

Don't overdo, it'll stall growth as the overapplication of gibberelins is not a good idea. Ask me how I know... :-)

My overall response to that set of words is, "avoid." It's sales-speak and nothing else.

But if Andy doesn't respond, let's see if somebody can get his attention. I'm curious as to what he has to say.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » June 2nd, 2021, 9:16 pm

Yea, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. Based on the convos I had with him, I don't think he meant it that way. More like, it's like Milo, just different. It is granular so I know it should have some biomass to it. Honestly I got like 6 or 7 quotes and these guys were the cheapest by a long shot.

That said, I think you guys are doing the lords work here. But I'm also interested in the time savings. As much as I'd love to have infinite time and money to get things solid, I have a set of 6 month old twins so my time is worth something as well. And treating 60,000 sq ft takes quite a bit of time.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by andy10917 » June 2nd, 2021, 9:44 pm

But if Andy doesn't respond, let's see if somebody can get his attention. I'm curious as to what he has to say.
Really? I have to be baited into responding?

My thoughts were similar to Morph's. I was tempted to say "ask for the label information, including ingredients", but I knew they'd say it's a special proprietary mix. Blah, blah, blah... Sales talk. You might as well talk to the wall.

Look, they can't get it all that much cheaper than you unless they buy it by the ton (and they don't). Get the proof or walk away. There are no free lunches.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » June 2nd, 2021, 9:48 pm

andy10917 wrote:
June 2nd, 2021, 9:44 pm
Really? I have to be baited into responding?
Sometimes. I find a trail of Milorganite works.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by MorpheusPA » June 2nd, 2021, 9:52 pm

bolson32 wrote:
June 2nd, 2021, 9:16 pm
Yea, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. Based on the convos I had with him, I don't think he meant it that way. More like, it's like Milo, just different. It is granular so I know it should have some biomass to it. Honestly I got like 6 or 7 quotes and these guys were the cheapest by a long shot.

That said, I think you guys are doing the lords work here. But I'm also interested in the time savings. As much as I'd love to have infinite time and money to get things solid, I have a set of 6 month old twins so my time is worth something as well. And treating 60,000 sq ft takes quite a bit of time.
Time is money. A quote Pratchett made much of.

However, I'd still be rather wary. Most organic apps from most companies are not what they should be, and that list is...questionable.

I'd rather see you have time to do one minimal app yourself that's known-good and pay for a decent synthetic program than overpay for an organic program you're not getting. Even so, the synthetic guys are not very good anyway.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by andy10917 » June 2nd, 2021, 10:05 pm

Sometimes. I find a trail of Milorganite works.
Nah. I read every posting - every one. I just am tied up a bit with helping one son build a second floor on his house (Just finished Phase 1 !!!). Reviewing Phase 2 plans and waiting for building permit. Another son is waiting for a (large) basement project to get going.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » June 3rd, 2021, 8:21 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
June 2nd, 2021, 9:52 pm
I'd rather see you have time to do one minimal app yourself that's known-good and pay for a decent synthetic program than overpay for an organic program you're not getting. Even so, the synthetic guys are not very good anyway.
See, that's the problem. Even the synthetic quotes I'm getting are higher. TruGreen came in at $200 higher after a real hard sell($1050 total), granted that would be for 7 applications. But they don't seem interested in only doing 4 applications. I'm going to get a few more quotes, but I just haven't seen even a synthetic service come in that cheaply.

They do still use synthetic weed control and it's not branded as an organic program at all, they just say they use organic fertilizer.

I'll see if I can get a little more info on it today. A label and application rate would be great.

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Re: Yet Another Organic Fert question

Post by bolson32 » June 3rd, 2021, 10:33 am

Starting to find it hard to believe they're using organics, I asked for a label today and all I got back was....

"20-0-4 +.10 Dimension at 4 lbs. per 1000 sf is what we're applying right now"

I'm not really aware of any true organics that come bundled with dimension, are you? That said, I'm still actually considering it. They normally do 4 apps a year and will do callbacks for weed control if you do all 4. I had Weedman for 3 years at my previous house and literally never called them back. I feel like 2 or 3 treatments a year would help me out on the time front and then I could apply some meaningful applications as Morph said.

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