Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
OK, Renovators - now you've probably killed the old lawn and used the opportunity of last week or this week to get the seed down, and you've self-medicated with adult beverages. You're just seeing the first little bambinos of the new lawn (or will soon!).
Now we tell you about one of the most frustrating steps in a Renovation, and what you need to do to deal with it...
Sprout-and-Pout. Ugh!
The new grass will go from a few seedlings to a green haze and start to grow for a while, and then just stop. You'll wonder if you did something wrong, and what action you should take. Many will bet the fertilizer that was applied has been used up, and the Renovation is stalling.
That's NOT what is happening. The seed uses the stored food in the seed to get the sprout going, and then begins to build the root system. Top-growth often appears to stop at this stage.
The worst thing you can do is hit it with a lot of Nitrogen at this stage - top growth will be forced, and the plants will have more blade growth than it can support with the existing roots. Any (even short) hot spell in the ensuing couple of weeks can cause browning or even loss of some grass in sunny areas. Not good.
The best thing you can do when Sprout-and-Pout occurs is nothing - just keep up the watering and wait it out. Yes, it can take 10-20 days to work through it, but it's the first sign that the grass is moving from a helpless infant to something that won't require constant care. My experience says that the more you leave Sprout-and-Pout alone, the sooner the 3X - 5X watering can begin to slide toward longer periods between watering.
There are always the Adult Beverages to retreat to if you feel you should be doing something and know you should resist it...
Now we tell you about one of the most frustrating steps in a Renovation, and what you need to do to deal with it...
Sprout-and-Pout. Ugh!
The new grass will go from a few seedlings to a green haze and start to grow for a while, and then just stop. You'll wonder if you did something wrong, and what action you should take. Many will bet the fertilizer that was applied has been used up, and the Renovation is stalling.
That's NOT what is happening. The seed uses the stored food in the seed to get the sprout going, and then begins to build the root system. Top-growth often appears to stop at this stage.
The worst thing you can do is hit it with a lot of Nitrogen at this stage - top growth will be forced, and the plants will have more blade growth than it can support with the existing roots. Any (even short) hot spell in the ensuing couple of weeks can cause browning or even loss of some grass in sunny areas. Not good.
The best thing you can do when Sprout-and-Pout occurs is nothing - just keep up the watering and wait it out. Yes, it can take 10-20 days to work through it, but it's the first sign that the grass is moving from a helpless infant to something that won't require constant care. My experience says that the more you leave Sprout-and-Pout alone, the sooner the 3X - 5X watering can begin to slide toward longer periods between watering.
There are always the Adult Beverages to retreat to if you feel you should be doing something and know you should resist it...
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- Posts: 485
- Joined: July 21st, 2016, 10:35 am
- Location: Verona, WI
- Grass Type: Bewitched Kentucky bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 20000-1 acre
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
This is so nerve racking! Saw the first few sprouts but have irrational worrythat the rest won't take. I haven't been having trouble falling asleep like this since my son was born in February. My 16 year old bottle of lagavulin scotch is half empty already!
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Oh, yeah!! Every little pop-up thunderstorm looks like this to you as a Renovator:
and this is what a proper Renovation cellar for a small Renovation looks like:
and this is what a proper Renovation cellar for a small Renovation looks like:
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- Posts: 1259
- Joined: June 1st, 2015, 3:10 pm
- Location: S.E. Mass.
- Grass Type: KBG
- Lawn Size: 1000-3000
- Level: Experienced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Can totally relate from last year. Good advice here.
Truth to the matter, I just told someone considering a KBG reno that you won't have a lawn as you know it, until around Farther's Day weekend in June the year after you do it. You might be happy with it in October when you can get some fertilizer down on it, but it will still be patchy and stunted.
I didn't say wow about the new lawn; until farther Day weekend, when it was warm and the tenacity treatments wore off. Thats when it was spreading and I was cutting twice a week. Of course after this summer, things are stunted again, and Sept. 1st cant come fast enough.
But it did survive the summer so far :-)
Truth to the matter, I just told someone considering a KBG reno that you won't have a lawn as you know it, until around Farther's Day weekend in June the year after you do it. You might be happy with it in October when you can get some fertilizer down on it, but it will still be patchy and stunted.
I didn't say wow about the new lawn; until farther Day weekend, when it was warm and the tenacity treatments wore off. Thats when it was spreading and I was cutting twice a week. Of course after this summer, things are stunted again, and Sept. 1st cant come fast enough.
But it did survive the summer so far :-)
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Agree, but sometimes it works out better than expected. This is my 2013 Backyard renovation ("Blueberry" monostand) at 60 days. I had a friend that refused to believe that it wasn't sod by October 20th:
- turf_toes
- Posts: 6043
- Joined: December 17th, 2008, 8:46 pm
- Location: Central NJ
- Grass Type: 77% Blueberry/23% Midnight Star KBG in front. Bewitched KBG monostand in back.
- Lawn Size: Not Specified
- Level: Not Specified
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Yeah. Blueberry seemed to be ridiculously quick. My lawn looked established in under 60 days.
It wasn’t close to what it would become later. But I had many compliments before day 60.
I’d still redo it all with bewitched though, if i had to do it again.
It wasn’t close to what it would become later. But I had many compliments before day 60.
I’d still redo it all with bewitched though, if i had to do it again.
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- Posts: 485
- Joined: July 21st, 2016, 10:35 am
- Location: Verona, WI
- Grass Type: Bewitched Kentucky bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 20000-1 acre
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Wow Andy. That looks ridiculously good. What is the quoted germination time for blueberry?
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Typical 14 days. I got a few sprouts at 5 days personally, but that's not it. It is very robust once it gets going for real (post Sprout-and-Pout). My "Emblem" front yard took up to 35 days to complete germinating, and was so fragile that I looked at it every morning to make sure it hadn't croaked overnight, but once it got to 60 days or so it roared forward (it was in the "Aggressive" family of KBG). "Blueberry" was just an every-day-is-better cultivar. I agree with Turf Toes that I'd do "Bewitched" instead now (we used it on my son's lawn and I love it). I tried to establish "Bewitched" into my "Emblem" front yard last year, but just like the "Moonlight SLT" that I tried to get a foothold for in that yard, the aggressive "Emblem" said "no thank you" and I cannot find any significant "Bewitched" in the lawn. I tried to establish other cultivars into the front yard because "Emblem" isn't sold any more and if I ever had damage/disease that required reseeding, I couldn't get "Emblem" to repair it, and coloration differences would be an issue ("Emblem" has a lot of blue tones).
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- Posts: 579
- Joined: April 11th, 2017, 7:09 pm
- Location: Columbus, OH
- Grass Type: KBG, PRG, Fescue mix
- Lawn Size: 2 acre-5 acre
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
I shared the “pop-up thunderstorm” pic with my wife and we had a great laugh. I swear I’ve watched more weather forecasts the past two weeks than I ever have. I’ll watch all 3 local stations and record it if we’re not here to catch it later.
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- Posts: 546
- Joined: April 19th, 2018, 5:12 pm
- Location: S. New Hampshire
- Grass Type: KBG
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
That’s why I used seed blankets.
You will definitely have wash ours from that.
You should get some seeding mats from Lowe’s and place them along the side walk with more seed.
Been right where you are at bro it sucks.
You will definitely have wash ours from that.
You should get some seeding mats from Lowe’s and place them along the side walk with more seed.
Been right where you are at bro it sucks.
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- Posts: 1259
- Joined: June 1st, 2015, 3:10 pm
- Location: S.E. Mass.
- Grass Type: KBG
- Lawn Size: 1000-3000
- Level: Experienced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Kharps. that sucks, been there last year. The 1st week in I got a ton of rain and all kind of gullies and wash outs.
Its good that it happened early on and you can decide if you want to spread more seed, I did and never seemed to have a problem with areas coming in too thick. Even with seeding some areas twice I still had thin areas where the KBG had too spread into.
Watching the KBG spread into thin spots is amazing, but its a lot of work to get it to that point. Andy and a lot of others make it look easy, you forget everything they put into it.
Im hoping this fall is when it all falls into place. I am going to have the biggest smile when I put down that first Urea app in September :-)
Its good that it happened early on and you can decide if you want to spread more seed, I did and never seemed to have a problem with areas coming in too thick. Even with seeding some areas twice I still had thin areas where the KBG had too spread into.
Watching the KBG spread into thin spots is amazing, but its a lot of work to get it to that point. Andy and a lot of others make it look easy, you forget everything they put into it.
Im hoping this fall is when it all falls into place. I am going to have the biggest smile when I put down that first Urea app in September :-)
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
Pretty true. I'd guess that 75-100 hours of effort went into the 16K renovation between late June and the end of September. To help others considering larger-scale renovations, it's fully documented in a 21-page thread taking it through almost a full year.Andy and a lot of others make it look easy, you forget everything they put into it.
2013 Backyard Blueberry Renovation Thread
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- Posts: 176
- Joined: June 10th, 2018, 1:41 pm
- Location: Southeast Michigan
- Grass Type: KBG I think
- Lawn Size: 5000-10000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
I’m about like 12days into patching some spots.
And in the sprout an pout. While some seeds are still germinating the rest are just hanging out.
My plan was to drop some Milo at bag rate to support this as around 14days the starter should be either used up or broken down or leeched throughout the soil.
Is milo ok or don’t even mess with it?
And in the sprout an pout. While some seeds are still germinating the rest are just hanging out.
My plan was to drop some Milo at bag rate to support this as around 14days the starter should be either used up or broken down or leeched throughout the soil.
Is milo ok or don’t even mess with it?
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
No way it's gone. You sound like you're trying to convince us. I wouldn't do it.the starter should be either used up or broken down or leeched throughout the soil.
- llO0DQLE
- Posts: 1420
- Joined: August 4th, 2013, 3:20 pm
- Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
- Grass Type: KBG and Creeping Red Fescue
- Lawn Size: 1000-3000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
So you don't have a "no more monostand" then? Looks like it's still an Emblem mono. I'm confused, if you couldn't get the Moonlight SLT to take, why did you try to overseed with Bewitched instead of just letting Emblem spread? Did you have big enough bare/damage areas that overseeding was a higher chance of success?andy10917 wrote: ↑August 19th, 2018, 12:00 pmI tried to establish "Bewitched" into my "Emblem" front yard last year, but just like the "Moonlight SLT" that I tried to get a foothold for in that yard, the aggressive "Emblem" said "no thank you" and I cannot find any significant "Bewitched" in the lawn. I tried to establish other cultivars into the front yard because "Emblem" isn't sold any more and if I ever had damage/disease that required reseeding, I couldn't get "Emblem" to repair it, and coloration differences would be an issue ("Emblem" has a lot of blue tones).
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
I had an experiment (I always have experiments) that went bad and killed 3%-5% of the lawn - I didn't want to lose a whole season waiting for the "Emblem" to fill in the largest damaged areas. In the deeper shade, even aggressive cultivars take a while to fill in a 2' area. The lawn did fill in over time.
- llO0DQLE
- Posts: 1420
- Joined: August 4th, 2013, 3:20 pm
- Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
- Grass Type: KBG and Creeping Red Fescue
- Lawn Size: 1000-3000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
I see. You didn't want to do plugs?
- andy10917
- Posts: 29741
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: Renovators: Now You Hear The Truth
I did do plugs and Emblem fragments that had invaded the flowerbeds. Still, it takes time in the shade. Many areas of my property get 1-2 hrs a day of full direct sun. I'm having success well below the 6-hr standard for KBG, so I'm not complaining.
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